Research for new industry product!

[Will_Tech]

Hi

 

I am currently in third year studies at University of South Wales on the Live Event Technology course. As some of you may already know we are required to design and create a product for on of our major modules.

 

Working as a team we have come up with the idea of an industry specific piece of software that calculates truck packing sequences and required truck sizes. It would be greatly appreciated if you could complete the attached survey to aid our industry research.

 

Survey

http://goo.gl/forms/DlueWoZTRB

 

Any additional comments would be appreciated, please just post them to this thread!

 

Thanks again,

Will

[paulears]

I did the survey, but am a bit confused by the data it might generate. I can kind of see the point if you deal with really big events where you are dealing with cubes, always stacked in one orientation, into trailers with the same size and capacity, but my experience is that with a wide variety of case sizes, plus the odd bit of weird stuff, the pack is determined by practical things outside the 'cube'. How many times do you see some cases on their sides so the castors fit within each other to get an extra inch or two, or something a bit weird at the top because of a trailer light being just a touch too low. Other cases MUST be kept upright, others can be rotated - I'm not sure you could predict this in advance without your eyes. I'm not that good at packing. If I was to have to use software, then the measurements would need to be super accurate, and case data available - even things like caster cups in one case types top for the next one to stack onto are important - and some of these designs mean there is a small left to right shift, case on case. If all cases are tour sized in singles and multiples, then surely it's a simple job of converting cu m into box sizes. When the cases all vary in sizes, then you have a rough idea of how many cases should fit, but could you predict the doors closing 100%? I doubt it. If it still needs eyes on during the pack then at best, the software is only a guide, and fiddling on the first try is still needed.

 

Have you found some real need for the software? Are people getting it wrong? Are accurate sizes of cases and trailers even available? I just wonder if the old paper method is still the best. How would the software actually detail the pack, with 6 orientations per case? We don't have a system for even detailing this do we?

If the result is kind of

Case

Position - row and column

Orientation 1-6

That's tricky - but then how would you denote how a double case would be stacked on top of singles?

 

I think, based solely on my own 2 in the morning trailer loading that the best solution is the simplest one - probably having somebody who simply knows the pack from doing it manually. For a major tour there could be some use of software, if it's saving time, and this is what I wonder about. The prep time for entering the data could simply be longer than doing it manually with some trial and error.

 

I suspect that the production office might simply establish the point at which the equipment exceeds the capacity of one trailer, and then, once you know you do not need three, the load is simple for two trailers - you just pack neatly until the first is full, and the remainder goes into truck 2, which has space left.

 

Maybe if your pre-production indicates you are only just over one trailer, then some re-arangement and rotation could save the day - but manual fiddling could still be easier?

 

Let us have some info on what gave you all the idea? It's intriguing that you have seen a problem to be solved here?

 

Have you established a need for this software? Do the big trucking companies see it as useful?

[indyld]

I think the question of need is a valid one. Even if some software could deal with the complexity of all the different elements of a pack (not even taking into account the amount of time required to input the base data), it could would struggle to do recalculations at the speed I can (or should I say, software could do calculations faster but it would take longer to process and action). And I can tip the boxes too.

 

As person usually in charge of the pack when I was touring, not only are you making decisions in real time (and at the speed that a bunch of local crew are firing boxes into the truck) but you are also basing your decisions on the best available box AT THE TIME. A good packer should never have to turn a box away and most guys I know cannot stand trying to get a pack done with someone that is endlessly fussing over this or that needs to be here or there. If it's up the ramp, it goes in in the best place possible at that moment. You don't want to add to that the rigidity of a "planned" pack from a piece of software....

 

I will call for particular types of box and even ask if I can have 'the desk soon' and keep on working until it appears, changing my plans in real time, arriving at new ones and going "oh, I didn't know that was coming in. OK, stick it on top of that for a minute." Even with multiple trailers, you can end up in a situation where specific items go on because they are ready to go, which may or may not be exactly the same at the last move but, hell, we gotta keep moving. A pre-planned system has no idea that the noise boys will probably be done with x at about this point in the pack or easily make a change when the first truss and motors are done and dusted earlier tonight. Not to mention considering who will want what when tomorrow when it all comes off again.

 

As Paul states, the calculation of trailers is quite simple: It's this, or it's that. Plus a Sprinter. Or the load in can't fit a 45ft step frame tri-axle in anyway, so decision made.

 

I wouldn't wish ill on the idea, but as person nominated to the do the calculations and operate the tail-lift etc. on countless occasions, I don't see the need. Someone still has to triple stack the ML boxes anyway, software can't do that.

 

Edit to add: // Real time truck calcs: What the rest of the team stripping the venue want from you as person in charge of the pack is to follow the last few boxes out to find a handful in the road and in the process of going on. What they don't want to to find that it's all still on the tarmac because you are fussing over whether box A2 or A3 can go on next. (With any luck, some kind soul as picked up my personals and tools for me and brought them out)

 

Further edit: What cannot be assumed from a 3d volumetric plan is real time decision making on the stability of the load. A decent packer can ensure that when the truck is opened again the following morning, nothing has moved significantly and yet barely a ratchet strap was used in the process.

 

We call it 3D Tetris for a reason.

[musht]

We call it 3D Tetris for a reason.

 

There is a 2D version ;-)

 

http://www.petersontuners.com/index.cfm?category=134

[Will_Tech]

I did the survey, but am a bit confused by the data it might generate. I can kind of see the point if you deal with really big events where you are dealing with cubes, always stacked in one orientation, into trailers with the same size and capacity, but my experience is that with a wide variety of case sizes, plus the odd bit of weird stuff, the pack is determined by practical things outside the 'cube'. How many times do you see some cases on their sides so the castors fit within each other to get an extra inch or two, or something a bit weird at the top because of a trailer light being just a touch too low. Other cases MUST be kept upright, others can be rotated - I'm not sure you could predict this in advance without your eyes. I'm not that good at packing. If I was to have to use software, then the measurements would need to be super accurate, and case data available - even things like caster cups in one case types top for the next one to stack onto are important - and some of these designs mean there is a small left to right shift, case on case. If all cases are tour sized in singles and multiples, then surely it's a simple job of converting cu m into box sizes. When the cases all vary in sizes, then you have a rough idea of how many cases should fit, but could you predict the doors closing 100%? I doubt it. If it still needs eyes on during the pack then at best, the software is only a guide, and fiddling on the first try is still needed.

 

Have you found some real need for the software? Are people getting it wrong? Are accurate sizes of cases and trailers even available? I just wonder if the old paper method is still the best. How would the software actually detail the pack, with 6 orientations per case? We don't have a system for even detailing this do we?

If the result is kind of

Case

Position - row and column

Orientation 1-6

That's tricky - but then how would you denote how a double case would be stacked on top of singles?

 

I think, based solely on my own 2 in the morning trailer loading that the best solution is the simplest one - probably having somebody who simply knows the pack from doing it manually. For a major tour there could be some use of software, if it's saving time, and this is what I wonder about. The prep time for entering the data could simply be longer than doing it manually with some trial and error.

 

I suspect that the production office might simply establish the point at which the equipment exceeds the capacity of one trailer, and then, once you know you do not need three, the load is simple for two trailers - you just pack neatly until the first is full, and the remainder goes into truck 2, which has space left.

 

Maybe if your pre-production indicates you are only just over one trailer, then some re-arangement and rotation could save the day - but manual fiddling could still be easier?

 

Let us have some info on what gave you all the idea? It's intriguing that you have seen a problem to be solved here?

 

Have you established a need for this software? Do the big trucking companies see it as useful?

 

Hi Paul

 

Thanks for your comment there. The idea initially came from working within a receiving theatre where crew are always asking whats coming out next and sometimes, the crew do not know exactly. I should of explained this earlier but the idea of the software is that you have a user interface, where the operator chooses from a selection of box sizes (a database will be be built) with the option to enter a custom box size and also the box weight. Once all units have been inputted to the user interface the software calculated the packing sequence and also the required trailer size. Also with this is a range of possible output reports including a packing or get out schedule which details which boxes need to head to the truck first.

 

Of course this is still an early stage in the process which is why we've gone down the research route to see what peoples opinion are and ultimately, if the idea is feasible and viable. Our main market was concert and arena touring where a large quantity of generic box sizes are used and large amount of trailers are toured.

 

If the software goes to the building stage further options will be added to the user interface including non-tip and first off options.

 

Thanks for your comments and feedback so far!

 

Will

[themadhippy]

We call it 3D Tetris for a reason.

indeed,if you read the so called history of tetris you'd think it was developed by a russian doctor,when in fact it was developed by russian ballet road crew,the original music was played by members of the band getting impatient with the crews attempt at packing the trucks,as there instruments were packed, the piece was originally played on combs and paper.

[Jivemaster]

There is software that calculates the packing of a container ship with respect to destination and lots of other things (Youtube about the shipping of an old aircraft to ?America? )

 

If you could include gross weights and calculate the percentage overload on each axle VOSA would love the figures.

[indyld]

There is a 2D version ;-)

http://www.petersontuners.com/index.cfm?category=134

 

Oh gawd. I've never seen that, I'm going to have to resist it as I have a focus to attend. First impressions were I couldn't get the hang of the key controls and that the boxes came it too slowly to be lifelike and one at a time!!!

 

... must resist.... must resist....

[AndyJones]

I think there is no need to design a truck pack from scratch using software, there are far to many variables. I often wondered when on tour about a way of recording the truck pack in a simple way. For the first few days I would write it down, until after that it was stored in my head and I did away with any notes.

 

I always would prefer to scribble it down on paper, so that I can easily make notes about cases that might need spinning etc. I'm not sure that a bit of software would be quick enough, or flexible enough to help. I'm also not sure I want my iPad or iPhone on the back of the truck where it's likely to get smashed.

 

The last tour I did had 11 cases stacked down one side with 12" 6m truss stacked up to the roof.(with 4 heavy spreader trusses on the floor and a few loose 2m sections on top. I then had Mac cases on wheels with double stacked 5ft Lo-pro trusses on top -I'm not sure how you would record that!?

 

It's a nice idea, but I can't see how it would be made to work.

 

Regards,

 

AndyJones

[paulears]

I got a bit lost on the idea of the production company funding a system that is of benefit to local crew - who normally don't need more than the case label saying where it needs to go. Local crew and festival humpers don't really matter do they? I still shove piles of cases, and can't really summon the enthusiasm to need to know what the next one sliding down the ramp actually is - apart from occasional nosiness?

 

So far, I get the feeling the general view here is it's not a simple system to implement and has no cost or time saving positives to justify the effort. A bit like those big and expensive gel sheet cabinets that usually make finding and storing gel more difficult, because rolls in cardboard boxes are quicker and simpler - but not as posh.

[ImagineerTom]

...and if you're looking at the event / arena end of the market you have 2 other major flaws in your idea.

 

1) the order stuff goes on/off the truck is based entirely on the order the show is being built so your software would also have a whole extra level of complexity trying to comprehend why certain boxes need to come off first / last & that that variable would change from venue to venue - some arena's you'd need your own slings and shackles off first so you can get your own points in, others have existing points or a mother grid you can use, then the next day when your tour pulls in to glastonbury/reading/leeds festival really you only need the instruments and the desk off.

 

2) in the world of these big touring shows/events the trucking cost is small and the benefit of your software would be tiny. Whilst a small touring theatre show would see real financial benefit in being able to reduce their shipping from 2 trucks to 1, any kind of arena show who are already humping 8-10 vehicles up and down the country aren't going to see any significant cost saving by discovering a new packing method that saves one truck

[indyld]

Although this may not fit within the requirements of the course assessment, if the OP already has an idea / system in place, maybe reading some Steve Blank might be worthwhile. In particular, the idea of the 'pivot'. Just because your potential customers don't bite your hand off for the first iteration, doesn't mean the ideas and the thinking is dead in the water.

 

http://steveblank.com/2014/10/03/my-students-grow-into-a-company/

 

What else could this seed of an idea turn into?

 

(Focus session complete. Must resist the Tetris game and go to bed)

[Will_Tech]

Hello!

 

 

Thanks for all your comments they have been taken on board! Also thanks for the link indyld it has given me something to think about.

 

Thanks again

Will