The generation of iPad based mixers...

[benniferj]

So, I've just seen that Mackie are bringing out a DL32R, a 32 input, 14 output rack with wireless control. The X32 rack has iPad control. Of course, GLD, CL, LS9 etc all have iPad control, but most users will go straight for the hardware faders and control system rather than straight to iPad. For the purpose of this, we'll focus on just the units that DONT have a hardware interface as well.

 

My question is: has anyone had any reasonable success using these devices for anything more than the basic 'pull up a mic or 2' sort of show? Originally I was sceptical as to if the UI would be fast enough to get around and if in trouble… react with EQ or monitor changes etc. I liked the idea of it though, for some shows it could be very practical. Then my own band played a show in London where the venue's sound man was attempting to mix on a DL1608 and it was appalling. Every time there was a little squeak of feedback, he'd be panicking, scrabbling around on the iPad trying to fix it. In reality all it needed was a couple of small tweaks to fix which normally would be very simple and intuitive. I have been fully put off of it. It just seemed like he was fighting against the UI rather than it letting him achieve what he needed it to at speed.

 

So has anyone had a good experience with working with this sort of system? As the market starts to pull towards 'desk less' systems I was wondering if anyone actually favours it, and can see that mixing a 32 channel show exclusively on an iPad is something they'd want to do?

[sam.spoons]

I use a DL1608 for small to medium gigs and am quite happy mixing bands (up to a 7 piece soul band so far) I haven't had any feedback issues as your guy did but I'd agree that, in extremis, the iPad paradigm is not as friendly as a bank of knobs and faders. I doubt the iPad will replace a 'proper' desk for bigger shows (I definitely wouldn't have wanted to do Sweeney Todd on one earlier this year) though larger touch screen control surfaces like the Raven Slate pro may well become the norm in the future.

 

I'd say the 16 channels of the DL1608 is about the most I'd be comfortable mixing exclusively on the iPad.

 

The Mackie Master Fader app is the best out there in my opinion and for many things the touch screen it brilliant. Team it up with a bank or two of faders and I'd be pretty apply I think.

[Oldradiohand]

As an old school soundie I find it really difficult to use controls that offer no tactile feedback - I've always thought linear faders were a retrograde step from quadrants! The thought of using touch screen faders appalls me. My hands don't seem to work with touch screens at the best of times and sixteen faders on an ipad simply wouldn't work with fingers as thick as mine. And it's nice to be able to feel what you are doing without having to look.

[RichM]

There is no way on earth I will ever operate a show using anything that has a touchscreen only interface, never mind using something that requires a wireless connection.

 

Using an iPad for setup/tweaks etc is fine and genuinely useful. Mixing a show? No way. I like to mix without taking my eyes off the stage.

[dsharp7th]

I'm not a sound engineer, but as an events organiser, one of our regular PA suppliers' use of iPad control for an LS9 desk has had great benefits to events planning. My link

 

Clearly a top quality show will always need FoH, well, front of house, but there are now small - medium complexity events where time or layout dictates that a front of house weatherproofed and cabled position would have been tricky - now we can set up the main desk at the side of stage, and the engineer simply walks out into the audience with an iPad to mix live. There are wireless dropouts, (more so indoor than outdoor it seems), but it is certainly an advantage for tricky venues.

[sam.spoons]

I'm not a sound engineer, but as an events organiser, one of our regular PA suppliers' use of iPad control for an LS9 desk has had great benefits to events planning. My link

 

Clearly a top quality show will always need FoH, well, front of house, but there are now small - medium complexity events where time or layout dictates that a front of house weatherproofed and cabled position would have been tricky - now we can set up the main desk at the side of stage, and the engineer simply walks out into the audience with an iPad to mix live. There are wireless dropouts, (more so indoor than outdoor it seems), but it is certainly an advantage for tricky venues.

 

Wireless dropouts should not interrupt the show, any changes made will happen on reconnection but the audio will keep on flowing. My Mackie DL1608 (on the very rare occasions it happens) continues in it's current state until the WiFi reconnects then you can make changes again.

[david.elsbury]

Yep, unless it drops the control link in the middle of a burst of feedback!

[sam.spoons]

http://www.blue-room.org.uk/public/style_emoticons/default/sad.gif Yup, absolutely true... Low probability but definitely a possibility. OTOH I have used my DL on only a few dozen gigs but I haven't had a single 'noticeable' dropout. Any feedback issues are purely due to operator error . I do agree it's easier to sort problems quickly with a physical knob/fader and, to that end (as everybody is now fed up of hearing me saying) I have just bought (all together now) an X32 Compact http://www.blue-room.org.uk/public/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif. Real faders/knobs/buttons are definitely going to be better than a touch screen interface but there are many scenarios where the iPad paradigm is the best compromise. I've just mixed three top notch acoustic acts at an industry showcase (including a 5 piece requiring 13 channels) on the DL/iPad setup and received many complements on the quality of the sound, both on stage and FOH (I like to think that means I did a good job rather than I just have decent gear and an not quite 'tin' ear).

[sleah]

Any feedback issues are purely due to operator error .

 

I do hope you're not suggesting that it's the sound engineers fault when the singer drops their mic in front of a monitor or decides to go stand right in front of a FOH speaker!!! :blink:

[sam.spoons]

Any feedback issues are purely due to operator error .

 

I do hope you're not suggesting that it's the sound engineers fault when the singer drops their mic in front of a monitor or decides to go stand right in front of a FOH speaker!!! :blink:

Of course it is (in the eyes of the singer at least) http://www.blue-room.org.uk/public/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif

[revbobuk]

Interesting timing - check out the Behringer Facebook page, and in particular the new XR18 model:

 

X AIR is Here!

 

You have already seen the videos, and now you can read more information on the amazing new X AIR series of digital mixers on our website. Check it out!

 

http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/X18.aspx

http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/XR18.aspx

http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/XR12.aspx

http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/XR16.aspx

 

What's relevant to this thread is that the XR18 has a MIDI interface which will work with physical control surfaces like the X-touch.

[Richard P-W]

I do hope you're not suggesting that it's the sound engineers fault when the singer drops their mic in front of a monitor or decides to go stand right in front of a FOH speaker!!! :blink:

 

Whenever the talent starts going walkabout or fumbling with the stand I always intuitively reach for their fader - which is another reason for preferring a physical fader to touch without looking down!

[sam.spoons]

I do hope you're not suggesting that it's the sound engineers fault when the singer drops their mic in front of a monitor or decides to go stand right in front of a FOH speaker!!! :blink:

 

Whenever the talent starts going walkabout or fumbling with the stand I always intuitively reach for their fader - which is another reason for preferring a physical fader to touch without looking down!

 

Pity we can't go with our first instinct and reach for the twelve borehttp://www.blue-room.org.uk/public/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif

[ImagineerTom]

I think the "fear" of no physical controls to grab is a generational thing combined with experience (or lack of) with technology. I can "touch type" on my various tablet devices, I can fire up apps and hit buttons without looking no problem at all but that's because I (just) scrape in to the I-generation and have been using touch-screen devices so have 15 years experience of touching things that don't exist based on muscle memory and experience. It's a skill-set that the lighting world seemed to cope with when they switched from banks of 400 manual faders to computerised desks that completely eliminated any direct corrolation between a fader and a specific light; every LX op I've seen in recent years is completely at home running lights in a way that is completely alien to an op from 15 years ago who now is more likely to address problems using nothing but a number keypad. It's just a change in operating ethos that the sound world is only just having to address surely?

[sam.spoons]

I think the "fear" of no physical controls to grab is a generational thing combined with experience (or lack of) with technology. I can "touch type" on my various tablet devices, I can fire up apps and hit buttons without looking no problem at all but that's because I (just) scrape in to the I-generation and have been using touch-screen devices so have 15 years experience of touching things that don't exist based on muscle memory and experience. It's a skill-set that the lighting world seemed to cope with when they switched from banks of 400 manual faders to computerised desks that completely eliminated any direct corrolation between a fader and a specific light; every LX op I've seen in recent years is completely at home running lights in a way that is completely alien to an op from 15 years ago who now is more likely to address problems using nothing but a number keypad. It's just a change in operating ethos that the sound world is only just having to address surely?

 

I'm 61 but a technician by nature so the move to touch screens was not a problem. In the sound world physical knobs/faders are still the norm and I don't think they'll go away totally for a considerably while. Example, if you as a lampie leave a lamp on when it shouldn't be on the director may shout at you (if it's, say, during a blackout) but the audience are unlikely to be too upset (they'll probably enjoy watching the dead body creeping off stage under it's own steam). I OTOH I generate a huge burst of feedback and everybody from the director via the punters down to the theatre cat, are going to be screaming for blood..... A miss hit on the soundies iPad has a greater potential for mayhem. Physical faders make that scenario less likely. (I know that is a huge oversimplification, and I'm not a lampie so you may well be able to prove me wrong but that's my take) I'd also say the sound guys are probably more conservative than LX techs.