Pyro courses in the South-East

[jmdh]

I'm production managing for an amateur group next month and we would like to use some theatrical flashes in our production. We have the firing equipment and it's been used safely in professional venues before but the venue is this time requiring that the operator(s) attend a pyrotechnic safety course: they have pointed us at

 

http://www.stage-pyro.org.uk/viewpage.php?page_id=2

http://www.backstage-academy.co.uk/course-information/stage-pyrotechnics-course

 

The only course I could find from those links which runs in time is in Wakefield, quite some way from Oxford (the second link there)

 

Does anyone know of any other courses running in the next few weeks in the South-East before I try and arrange this?

[top-cat]

Are you talking about, like, Le Maitre Pyroflash? The simple flash pots, about the size of a tea light?

 

To be honest you don't really need to attend a proper 'pyro course' to use these, they're really designed to plug and play and fairly idiot proof, As long as you read the instructions properly, they're no more dangerous than household fireworks that you buy in Tesco and fire in the garden.

 

If you do still want professional training on it, I would ring either Startech Productions (01865 722522) or Lancelyn (01865 722468), both down on Ferry Hinksey Road, both supply pyro and I'm sure that either would be happy to send somebody over to your premises for the day just to go through everything you need to know.

[jmdh]

Are you talking about, like, Le Maitre Pyroflash? The simple flash pots, about the size of a tea light?

 

To be honest you don't really need to attend a proper 'pyro course' to use these, they're really designed to plug and play and fairly idiot proof, As long as you read the instructions properly, they're no more dangerous than household fireworks that you buy in Tesco and fire in the garden.

 

If you do still want professional training on it, I would ring either Startech Productions (01865 722522) or Lancelyn (01865 722468), both down on Ferry Hinksey Road, both supply pyro and I'm sure that either would be happy to send somebody over to your premises for the day just to go through everything you need to know.

 

Yep, precisely, pyroflash. I have spoken to Lancelyn (where we would buy the pots) and they agree with your view that no formal training is needed - but the venue we are hiring is not negotiable on this; they seem to want the ASP accredited course taken by anyone doing the operation :(

[top-cat]

the venue we are hiring is not negotiable on this; they seem to want the ASP accredited course taken by anyone doing the operation :(

 

Sounds like total jobsworths!

[dosxuk]

Sounds like total jobsworths!

 

In my experience these sort of strict rules come in because either someone has done something stupid at the venue, or someone's done something stupid somewhere insured by the same people as the venue.

[top-cat]

Sounds like total jobsworths!

 

In my experience these sort of strict rules come in because either someone has done something stupid at the venue, or someone's done something stupid somewhere insured by the same people as the venue.

 

Often true, but also often true because the person at the venue who is left to run technical matters knows absolutely nothing about anything, so they just google 'pyrotechnics', it comes up that there's a course you can do, and they say 'huzzah! you must have done THIS course".

[MarkPAman]

People have been killed by pyro going wrong.

 

Any risk assessment for this is going to include the words "competent person". So, how do you show that you're competent?

[top-cat]

Any risk assessment for this is going to include the words "competent person". So, how do you show that you're competent?

 

Competence is gained through a combination of training, practical experience, and other forms of learning. Simply having a certificate does not prove you 'competent' in anything.

 

Whilst there have no doubt been many accidents involving people who did not hold certificates for the job they were undertaking, there have been many accidents involving people who were given too much responsibility in a job because they held a certificate but were still not 'competent'.

 

Hence my recommendation wasn't that no training be undertaken, but that training be undertaken by one of the city's well regarded theatrical suppliers who in both cases are known to be experienced retailers operators of pyrotechnics. Insisting that an ASP certificate attached to it is simply a reflection on the fact that somebody in the venue's chain (be it locally, the owners, the insurance company, or a mixture of them all) either doesn't know what they're on about, or isn't prepared to look into individual circumstances. I am convinced that a risk assessment detailing that training delivered by a professional firm, on a product designed for amateur use, to sensible adults, would be sufficient to satisfy 'competence'.

 

It is only in recent years that we have began to confuse the terms 'certificate' and 'competent'. And that's only as a result of private bodies seeing an opportunity to make money, and insurers seeing an opportunity to not pay! I have seen forklift drivers with licenses who I would not trust using a pallet truck. I have seen cherry picker drivers with IPAFs who I wouldn't trust on a ladder. I have seen PASMA ticket holders who I wouldn't trust building flat pack furniture. The list goes on!

 

I'm not saying the course shouldn't be done, I have read up on it on the Backstage Academy website and I'm sure that it's a really valid course for all those involved. However, I disagree with any notion that a person cannot be 'competent' to use pyrotechnics without attending the ASP course as it's simply not true.

[Jivemaster]

If it's in the Terms of Hire then you do the course -not negotiable. By now the details should be fixed otherwise you may have the curtain fail to rise for paying guests.

 

As an alternative to YOU doing the course then hire someone in who HAS done the course. This may cost more than doing the course.

 

By it's existence and the number of people passed through it, The ASP course is the only course in the UK to meet the requirements of the UK enactment of the EU Pyro Directive. So the venue has a point that someone should have compliant training.

[MarkPAman]

All very true.

 

But your "person at the venue who is left to run technical matters knows absolutely nothing about anything" will be much better reassured by a certificate issued by a recognised body.

[Brian]

As one of the trainers for the ASP course I can tell you that one thing course attendees are told is that their attendance on the course does not make them 'Competent'.

 

However, we have delivered the course 237 times to 4127 people, many of whom work for Local Authorities, Fire and Rescue services, the HSE, insurers, and other 'decision and policy' makers, as well as venue technicians and venue event managers. What the course does give everyone who has attended is a basic working knowledge of safe working practices and it has been recognised as providing one element in someone's route to proving their competence.

[top-cat]

I was also about to make a valid point that may have been overlooked but is very valid.

 

Whilst the ASP course is important in helping people understand the processes they should go through when using pyro and the dangers and controls associated with it, it doesn't feature product-specific training on any pyro system.

 

That's why I find it bemusing. The venue are happy for you to use pyro providing you know all the considerations to be taken into account when using pyro. You don't need to prove that you have any idea whatsoever how to use the specific kit for your specific show! What sense does that make? It's like being able to drive a car having only done a theory test!

[Jivemaster]

The ASP course is very clearly a "Safety Awareness" session. That's what venues and insurers want! Whether you chose the right effect is nearly irrelevant as long as it is SAFE.

 

However as the venue insists on this course to allow you to use pyro then your pyrotechnician must have this certificate. Whether your pyrotechnician is one of your members who has done the course, or is a paid contractor with the certificate is of little concern.

[kerry davies]

Competence consists of training/education together with skills gained through practice. You ain't gonna gain skills by practising at this site without the training, that is what they are saying. Fairly straightforward, eminently sensible and reasonably "normal".

 

End of the day? Their house, their rules, JFDI.

[Brian]

... it doesn't feature product-specific training on any pyro system.

Not correct. In the session after lunch, delegates use both Le Maitre and Skyhigh firing system to present a small 'show'. Between them, these two manufacturers represent something like 99% of firing systems that your average technician is likely to come across. In addition, during the morning, delegates have seen over 25 different effects, followed by another 25 different types in the afternoon. The reality is that, by the end of the course, most people have seen, and often fired, more different effects than they will ever fire in their working career.