Casual Crew

[preciseaudioltd]

We are looking to bring some casual unskilled crew in to help us out over the festive period. Duties will be loading/unloading of vans at venues, my question is what is classed as fair pay now for say a typical 8 hour shift.

 

The guys we are looking to use are local to us and we will pick them up on route to the jobs, feed them during the day and drop them back home at the end of the shift. We pay promptly at the end of the week and over three weeks will typically be offering 3 to 4 shifts a week. I want to make sure we pay a fair amount of money but on the flip side we have been asked for £200 a day.

 

Any thoughts ideas would be greatly appreciated.

[Shez]

Casual skilled crew around here tends to get £8-10 per hour. I should imagine unskilled crew would be a little less. If you're providing transport and food, you could possibly shave a few more pennies off too.

 

£200 / day suggests skilled freelance self-employed crew. Presumably you're looking to employ them on a PAYE basis?

[Ynot]

No offence intended to the potential cassies, but £200 a day does seem rather on the steep side if all they're expected to do is ride in the van, offload, then load the vehicle with no technical work in between.

 

One wouldn't be seen as unfair in this market to just pay NMW or slightly above maybe for this. so an 8 hour day at current NMW (£6.31) is just over £50, a quarter of what you've been asked for (which I presume is what the potential cassies are saying they want paying). £200/day is into the realms of a reasonably skilled tech, who's got responsibilities for the job and experience to get it done.

 

One question - are these events set up, run and loaded out on the same day (if so what do the cassies do during the events?) or do they run setup, go home, come back another day to strike...?

[preciseaudioltd]

Thanks for this. Some of the chaps that have approached us are students looking to earn a bit of extra cash, I am going to check with my accountant later today which is the best way to pay them. We were thinking of £80 an 8 hour shift so it pretty much goes with your thoughts.

Casual skilled crew around here tends to get £8-10 per hour. I should imagine unskilled crew would be a little less. If you're providing transport and food, you could possibly shave a few more pennies off too.

 

£200 / day suggests skilled freelance self-employed crew. Presumably you're looking to employ them on a PAYE basis?

 

On some of the events they will standby for the load out because by time they got home it would be time to head back out again. On the majority of events it is load in and then return the following morning for the load out.

No offence intended to the potential cassies, but £200 a day does seem rather on the steep side if all they're expected to do is ride in the van, offload, then load the vehicle with no technical work in between.

 

One wouldn't be seen as unfair in this market to just pay NMW or slightly above maybe for this. so an 8 hour day at current NMW (£6.31) is just over £50, a quarter of what you've been asked for (which I presume is what the potential cassies are saying they want paying). £200/day is into the realms of a reasonably skilled tech, who's got responsibilities for the job and experience to get it done.

 

One question - are these events set up, run and loaded out on the same day (if so what do the cassies do during the events?) or do they run setup, go home, come back another day to strike...?

[mark_s]

£200/day is in freelance day rate territory (albeit at the low end of the scale), where you're paying for a skilled person to come in and 'make things happen' with minimal supervision, no babysitting, and with an overall responsibility for the job being done correctly, safely and in a timely manner. I'm not sure that loading and unloading vans counts as that!

 

Locals (who do pretty much exactly what you've described) tend to get paid £7-10/hour, at least in the London area, with a minimum call (usually three or so hours). Something in that ballpark would be fair for the work asked, in my opinion.

[Ynot]

Thanks for this. Some of the chaps that have approached us are students looking to earn a bit of extra cash, I am going to check with my accountant later today which is the best way to pay them. We were thinking of £80 an 8 hour shift so it pretty much goes with your thoughts.

Hmmm...

 

NMW for 18-20 yr olds is just £5.03 at the moment, which drops that compulsory minimum for 8 hrs down to just over £40.

 

What you need to decide is how much you can afford to pay for the number of cassies you need for the work, and how easy it is going to be to attract enough bodies during the season at the rates you're happy to pay. And are you going to be using the same pool for the work, or taking anyone that turns up?

 

Loading/unloading flightcases may not be skilled work per se, but there is something to be said for a little experience doing this - using a core of lads/lasses you can 'train' at the start and trust to not just throw things in/out of the van could well be worth the extra couple of quid an hour.

 

But as Shez said, casual skilled crew could easily demand £8 to £10, so paying a group of lift 'n' shifters the same rate is really over-valuing the workforce...

[mark_s]

But as Shez said, casual skilled crew could easily demand £8 to £10, so paying a group of lift 'n' shifters the same rate is really over-valuing the workforce...

 

Alternatively, the industry undervalues its skilled casuals. Which doesn't necessarily mean that we should then pay the box shifters proportionately less as well. </controversial>

[Tom]

You could at least base your rates on the Living Wage

http://www.livingwage.org.uk rather than the NMW.

The current rates are £8.80 in London and £7.65 elsewhere.

[Ynot]

You could at least base your rates on the Living Wage

Purely playing devil's advocate here, (and wholeheartedly agreeing with Mark's comment about the undervaluing of skilled casuals) we ARE talking about students here, by the OP's admission. Students in general - for box shifting tasks - won't be looking at the necessity of a living wage as (in theory) that should all have been sorted via student loan, etc etc. What they are looking at will be pocket/beer/party money in general, so if I'm honest I wouldn't expect to pay much more than standard NMW for this type of work for this group of people UNLESS there were extenuating circumstances. After all, the OP has said they'll be collected and dropped off at the start/end of the shift (so no travel expenses to cover) and they'll be fed in addition to being paid (so no sustenance costs involved).

 

As I say, this is all devil's advocate stuff...

[preciseaudioltd]

I agree with everything you are saying. Even though these guys are not skilled we certainly do not want to take advantage of them, if it was my son/daughter doing the work I would want to know they are treated and paid fairly. Most of the money ends up as beer money which is fine by me everybody wins.

You could at least base your rates on the Living Wage

Purely playing devil's advocate here, (and wholeheartedly agreeing with Mark's comment about the undervaluing of skilled casuals) we ARE talking about students here, by the OP's admission. Students in general - for box shifting tasks - won't be looking at the necessity of a living wage as (in theory) that should all have been sorted via student loan, etc etc. What they are looking at will be pocket/beer/party money in general, so if I'm honest I wouldn't expect to pay much more than standard NMW for this type of work for this group of people UNLESS there were extenuating circumstances. After all, the OP has said they'll be collected and dropped off at the start/end of the shift (so no travel expenses to cover) and they'll be fed in addition to being paid (so no sustenance costs involved).

 

As I say, this is all devil's advocate stuff...

[Ynot]

I agree with everything you are saying. Even though these guys are not skilled we certainly do not want to take advantage of them, if it was my son/daughter doing the work I would want to know they are treated and paid fairly. Most of the money ends up as beer money which is fine by me everybody wins.

Taking advantage of them would be paying peanuts below the NMW or even expecting them to work for free as 'experience'...

 

B-)

[J Pearce]

You could look at some of the BECTU union agreed rates for some comparison with other sectors of the events industry.

Living wage is a good marker, and paying above NMW can help to engage your workers more by showing you value them, rather than paying rock bottom because the law says you must. Some companies have hard data to show this effect having raised wages for cleaning staff and found vastly improved productivity.

[SoLiEn]

We pay about £7 an hour, minimum for 3 hours, Not much but if all you are being asked to do is push flight cases AND you get free transport AND you get Food, They have no reason to complain. as everything they make, is profit.

 

regarding how you pay them, If You pay them through PAYE as an employer, don't forget that has implications with H&S ... Being the employer you are obliged to provide adequate PPE..

 

IF they are self employed... They have to provide. not you.

 

Just something to think about.

[indyld]

We pay about £7 an hour, minimum for 3 hours, Not much but if all you are being asked to do is push flight cases AND you get free transport AND you get Food, They have no reason to complain. as everything they make, is profit.

<snip>

IF they are self employed...

 

Not really *profit if you are self-employed, though, is it? Take out your overheads as a subcontractor and their ain't much left. Even PAYE on £21 before tax for a session I'm surprised that the boxes that get pushed are even the right ones!! :)

 

I also find the notion that students are working for 'beer money' rather quaintly old fashioned as most students I know work in order to fund life during their studies. Yes, this may include some beer but as likely as not actually covers food, travel and other living costs and, in the case of some students, fees!

 

(*: I'm actually a believer that "profit" is what is left when everyone has been paid. Even yourself. But that is slightly OT)

[kerry davies]

When the local crew company rates start at around £15 an hour, minimum 4 hour call, then anything less is a bonus. We are talking about the events/rock field and not theatre so I won't comment on NMW but that seems appallingly low to me. Even Tesco cleaners get the Living Wage so the issue of self-worth and valuing the contribution of others to my profits enters consideration.... for me.

 

I could not pay hourly as more often than not work was over two or more days and even though crew were accommodated and fed, there was no chance of them earning anything else for that whole day. I paid over the odds because they were representing me and my clients to the end customer, which may or may not be the case with Andy.

 

FWIW he seems to be working along reasonable lines for Scotland though I would advise a flexible approach. Nothing like taking the lads for a curry and a pint to build a team ethos when they "done good".