Counterweight Fly System Training

[Craig SM]

Does anyone know were offers Counterweight Fly system training in Glasgow?

[top-cat]

The thing about counterweight flying is that you need a venue fitted out with a counterweight system to train on it. And they tend to be fly towers - counterweight systems are large, and, with a few specialist exceptions; need to be permanently installed. As such, you only really find them in theatres.

 

As such, the best place to learn how to use them is in theatres. That shouldn't be a problem, try and get on the casual crew of a suitable theatre, and explain to them that you have an interest in flying, and would like to gain experience in that area. Most if not all flymen have learnt their job "on the job" and there is really nothing wrong with that way of doing it.

 

Doing a rigging course would not be useless, you could learn a lot about the suspension of entertainment equipment, working at height safely, etc; but to be honest if you want to learn counterweight systems you should do so on the job really. Even if you did attend training, you would still really be expected to learn on the job, attending a couple of days training course wouldn't leave you ready to crack on unsupervised.

[Craig SM]

The thing about counterweight flying is that you need a venue fitted out with a counterweight system to train on it. And they tend to be fly towers - counterweight systems are large, and, with a few specialist exceptions; need to be permanently installed. As such, you only really find them in theatres.

 

As such, the best place to learn how to use them is in theatres. That shouldn't be a problem, try and get on the casual crew of a suitable theatre, and explain to them that you have an interest in flying, and would like to gain experience in that area. Most if not all flymen have learnt their job "on the job" and there is really nothing wrong with that way of doing it.

 

Doing a rigging course would not be useless, you could learn a lot about the suspension of entertainment equipment, working at height safely, etc; but to be honest if you want to learn counterweight systems you should do so on the job really. Even if you did attend training, you would still really be expected to learn on the job, attending a couple of days training course wouldn't leave you ready to crack on unsupervised.

 

Thanks

 

I've waiting to hear back from some theatres just now, basically a "NEWLY" built theatre in our area has suddenly started to bring in the whole "you need this to do this etc....." when I already know how to do it but they have this thing about at my age 17 turning 18 that know more about theatre operations than they do "they don't like" so they are reluctant to train me aswell if I'm going to be working on the Crew for Les Miserables in March.

 

 

 

[Chris Higgs]

Call the ABTT.

[Craig SM]

Call the ABTT.

 

 

Chris was looking on they're website might just do that tomorrow! Cheers

 

 

[top-cat]

I've waiting to hear back from some theatres just now, basically a "NEWLY" built theatre in our area has suddenly started to bring in the whole "you need this to do this etc....." when I already know how to do it but they have this thing about at my age 17 turning 18 that know more about theatre operations than they do "they don't like" so they are reluctant to train me aswell if I'm going to be working on the Crew for Les Miserables in March.

 

Well whilst some new places can have a few administrative types who don't really have a clue there is usually a technical manager who knows his way around them. Who is responsible for the maintenance of the counterweight sets there? You want to ring him up. I would say if you are approaching theatres age 17 with the attitude that you know more than they do, you are digging your own hole.

 

You have to remember that theatrical flying is still governed by LOLER which requires that a competent person supervises lifting operations. As a 17 year old stagehand without or even with formal training I doubt that you could be considered that 'competent person' and there would still need to be somebody else there. The old saying is that "you don't know what you don't know" and I'd chill with the I know what I'm doing act at your age because the amount of experience you can have gained age 17 is limited. However much experience you have, the law does not consider you an adult and it is difficult for them to permit you to undertake activities which should be undertaken by competent adults.

 

Have they explicitly said that if you attended a counterweight flying course they would employ you as a flyman? Or are you working on the basis that presenting such a certificate would change their opinion of you?

 

Your profile says you do "Stage Management, Technical Directing, Lighting Tech, AV Tech" - age 17 I, and anybody else, will find it hard to believe that you perform such skills professionally. You may think you know it but like I said, you don't know what you don't know, and there are probably large gaps in your knowledge that you simply do not realise exist. Your stagejobs pro account says "My Names Craig Carter, I'm 16, And I've been in the Industry for 5 Years. I have a part time job as an AV Technician, I'm Also the Company Stage Manager and Technical Director for My School." - Whilst yes that's probably 2 years old now, I can assure you, if you are going round telling people you've been 'in the industry' since you were 11, people are not going to take you seriously.

 

 

Age 17/18 if you can be on the cassie crew turning the stage around and loading in and out then you're still doing well for yourself. If this is a new facility maybe consider swallowing your pride for the time being, and doing whatever they WILL let you do. Then if you are as good as you say you are, they will pick up on that fact and your rise up the career ladder will be swift. If you are not as good as you say you are then being one of the stagehands is your get out of jail free card - you're not expected to know anything. It is an ideal opportunity to learn, and prove what you can do, and progress at a rate that is suited to you.

 

But really, I would wind in the "I know better than you approach", to build a flying theatre with nobody who knows more about flying than a 17 year old is not easy to do and I would reckon there is probably somebody there who knows their stuff, and doesn't think you're ready yet. Don't take this as me being an a**hole, just see it that 7 years ago when I was 17 I thought I knew a whole lot more than I did and when you get older and when you are doing the job professionally you look back and laugh at yourself. If you can laugh at yourself that's great but don't burn your bridges now. Everyone prefers an enthusiastic learner to an incompetent know it all.

Just a quick E2A- Craig I'm not trying to make you look stupid or belittle you, I quoted from your SJP account because I think you need to review how you are presenting yourself to people. The fact you're on here saying you're the most knowledgeable person in the theatre and they're still not hiring you; and the fact you must genuinely believe you've been in the industry since age 11; means I genuinely think you will benefit from being given a reality check. Don't take this as an attack on you, just have a think about the way you come across because there's a lot of cliquey people in this business and the know-it-all attitude, at your age, will get you a bad name before you've even set foot in the door.

[david.elsbury]

+1 to an excellent post of advice. :)

 

Also:

the know-it-all attitude, at your age, will get you a bad name before you've even set foot in the door.

People are slow to forget their first impression of you. Cliched but true. There are just as many production, theatre managers and employers on this forum as technicians :)

[GridGirl]

Top Cat has said everything I was going to say, and probably much better than I could say it! I'd bet it's not the fact that you "know more than they do" that they don't like, it's probably the fact that you *think* you know more than they do that they don't like. I'm not trying to put you down, but at 17 you really cannot have had much experience outside school and maybe some amateur theatre, which realistically does not count for all that much in the "real world". Be prepared to do anything they ask you to do, even if it's sweeping the stage (even when I'm an SM in charge of a large crew, I still take my turn at sweeping and mopping the stage), don't go on about how much you know and all the shows you've done and if you're not sure of something, ask rather than barrel through thinking you can figure it out (because I get very sick of people being too proud to ask questions, stuffing something up and then I have to fix it).

 

As regards counterweight flying training, can you ask the venue if they are planning on organising a training day for all their staff? Particularly if it's a newly built venue, they may think it's a good idea to get staff trained up on their specific system.

[Gareth A]

+1 for all of the above. ! Even some of the people who have been in the industry for years don't have credentials like you have put on your SJP profile. ! If you really are this good - just ask the guy for his job!!!

 

 

Assistant Stage Manager, AV Technician, Carpenter, Chief Electrician, Company Stage Manager, Deputy Stage Manager, Electrician, Flyman, Followspot Operator, Lighting Designer, Lighting Director, Lighting Operator, Lighting Technician, Props Assistant, Props Manager, Props Supervisor, Rigger, Set Builder, Set Designer, Sound Operator, Sound Technician, Stage Assistant, Stage Manager, Stage Wingman, Technical Manager, Technical Stage Manager, Technician, Technician, Assistant

[paulears]

I suspect the OP is going in with an educational or amateur group doing Les Mis, and he wants to fly - and the venue don't want to let the amateurs do flying. Very common, and very sensible. The venue appreciate the potential danger. They see an inexperienced person. They stick to their 'rule'.

 

Every venue I've visited have similar concerns with flying. They'll let the amateurs push trucks and set scenery, but they won't let them fly.

 

I'm old and experienced - yet seriously damaged myself by a moments loss of concentration when flying - and I should not have done it. The prospect of somebody with no experience carrying out flying scares me.

 

In my panto risk assessments, one on flying clearly states that all flying activities will only be carried out by skilled, experienced operators.

 

I've run courses where we printed out certificates to be hung on the wall (or more commonly put into the filing cabinet labelled proof of competence) - when what I really wanted to put on the certificate was:

ATTENDED - TOO SCARED TO PARTICIPATE BUT TOOK NOTES

[indyld]

I suspect the OP is going in with an educational or amateur group doing Les Mis, and he wants to fly - and the venue don't want to let the amateurs do flying. Very common, and very sensible. The venue appreciate the potential danger. They see an inexperienced person. They stick to their 'rule'.

 

Totally logical. Most venues won't just let "any old stage crew" of their own fly without training and close supervision, however much theatre experience they have on the deck and quite right too. Ref: any number of HASAWA discussions on here. My experience of incoming shows of the type Paul talks of is similar: Flying only by designated house bod.

 

The one thing we don't have in our Uni theatre is flying and the only way to learn to fly is to go to a theatre with a system and learn from a flyman. And then get a chunk of experience under supervision. Our students learn the concepts and experience the system at the Theatre Royal, Bath but it doesn't make them flypersons. The "take brake off, pull string, thing go down, put brake on" takes about 5 mins and so not very much of 3 years BA is dedicated to the "pull string" element. They are better off working as cassies and hoping someone will trust them enough to pull string during a fit up occasionally. It's how I learned too.

[top-cat]

I suspect the OP is going in with an educational or amateur group doing Les Mis, and he wants to fly - and the venue don't want to let the amateurs do flying. Very common, and very sensible. The venue appreciate the potential danger. They see an inexperienced person. They stick to their 'rule'.

 

 

That's quite an assumption. It's equally possible that he is an enthusiastic local 'technician' who's previously neglected to work in the theatre (it's probably below him http://www.blue-room.org.uk/public/style_emoticons/default/blink.gif ) but now he's seen there's a well known production incoming that's worthy of his magic touch, he wants to play.

 

In any case it'd be interesting to find out whether the theatre are actually insisting on evidence of counterweight training, or whether he is simply trying to bolster his CV to them.

 

My advice would be to get down there and say sorry for your attitude, you are just keen. As I said above if you can be in a good theatre running trucks around the stage and helping in the get in and get out then you are in the right place to get some actual professional theatre experience on your CV, rather than populating it with school plays. As it stands, I can assure you that if you sent your CV to any professional company, the only reason it wouldn't get binned is if they were going to stick it on the noticeboard as mild humour.

 

 

In my panto risk assessments, one on flying clearly states that all flying activities will only be carried out by skilled, experienced operators.

 

To be fair, as I said above it is also written in law. Theatrical flying is not exempt from LOLER.

 

 

[paulears]

If they want actually certification for flying training, then they are going to have great difficulty. The only people who could offer practical training would be the venues themselves. even the manufacturers don't keep full sized working versions of their own kit - not many warehouses have the height and width. Any certified training would therefore be simulations, and practically useless!

[Tom]

There is a requirement for the employer (for H+S purposes in this instance that is what they are, even if you are working freelance) to ensure workers are suitably trained.

 

In many cases, and this could be one, they only way to do this is to carry out the training themselves or to send you on a course.

For some things there are universally accepted certifications (Like IPAF, National Rigging Certificate and Electrical qualifications) but as Paul as said, there is nothing like that for Counterweight Flying.

 

I would hope (though I know it is very often not the case) that any new person walking into a venue / onto a fly floor would undergo some form of induction from an experienced and trusted member of staff followed by a period of supervised work, part of which would be an assessment of their skills and competencies.

After all, all theatres are different and you need to know the vagaries of the system and the specific working practices of the building.

 

And don't forget, there is a lot more to competence than just having been on a course.

They are clearly concerned about your overall level of experience and the only way to convince them of that is to either get a very good reference from somebody they know and trust, or get your foot in the door and work your way up.

 

T

 

(Top-Cat - please correct any incorrect quoting of H+S legislation)

[Craig SM]

Thanks guys I agree with top-cat I am just an enthusiastic person which all I want to do is put my skills to use, pointless sitting round the house when I could be gaining more experience in 'Professional theatres".

 

Sorry for causing any inconvenience and upset!