Stage Floors

[Robin D]

Moderation: My fault for responding to the RA comment - but the topic here got derailed. I moved all risk assessment comments here as it's clear many people don't think the risk is actually much of a risk at all. The thinking behind it makes the topic useful to see how such a common and simple process gets complicated with so much variation in thinking

 

As for the RA, significantly more complex? It's an uneven floor - a potential trip hazard, needing cast and crew to be aware and deal with it - that's it isn't it?

I guess there's an interpretation issue here, so it will be interesting to get others viewpoints. I was taught that if you have the choice of getting rid of a risk altogether, (or not creating one) that this is always option 1. If you decide otherwise, you have to:

a) mitigate that risk as far as possible,

b) put steps into place to avoid anyone getting hurt, and

c) be ready and able to justify your decision not to have taken option 1. IMHO, that means writing it down before the event else you will not remember your thinking later.

It's point c) that is the most difficult as you will only be called to account if anything goes wrong, but its also very subjective. If my understanding is correct, you decide to put down a textured floor, someone trips, bangs their head and dies as a result, can you see any justification at point c) that would carry any weight in a court of law against a barrister with 20:20 hindsight?

 

That's why I said the RA gets 'significantly more complex', but please tell me I'm wrong.

 

Edit: To make one sentence make sense! ;-(

[timd]

It's point c) that is the most difficult as you will only be called to account if anything goes wrong, but its also very subjective. If my understanding is correct, you decide to put down a textured floor, someone trips, bangs their head and dies as a result, can you see any justification at point c) that would carry any weight in a court of law against a barrister with 20:20 hindsight?

 

Someone could quite happily fall off the edge of the stage, or trip over their shoelaces. Yet stages and shoelaces are still allowed. The argument that "what you're doing could be made safer" is insane when it doesn't take into account context. Cobbles exist in the real world, so what about putting them on a stage makes them unacceptable?

[David Ripley]

'Someone could quite happily fall off the edge of the stage, or trip over their shoelaces. Yet stages and shoelaces are still allowed. The argument that "what you're doing could be made safer" is insane when it doesn't take into account context. Cobbles exist in the real world, so what about putting them on a stage makes them unacceptable?'

 

Probably the fact you are making an existing flat surface uneven and therefore more of a trip hazard, just for theatrical effect, unlike walking on a cobbled street which you can't help, except by taking a different route. Obviously this will be mitigated by rehearsal and other controls but to some it could be interpreted as deliberately making the surface worse that it was originally, which is rather the opposite of what Risk Assessment/Management is intended to do

 

I'm not saying that is 'correct' just another way of interpreting it

 

David

[timd]

Probably the fact you are making an existing flat surface uneven and therefore more of a trip hazard, just for theatrical effect, unlike walking on a cobbled street which you can't help, except by taking a different route. Obviously this will be mitigated by rehearsal and other controls but to some it could be interpreted as deliberately making the surface worse that it was originally, which is rather the opposite of what Risk Assessment/Management is intended to do

 

I'm not saying that is 'correct' just another way of interpreting it

 

David

 

But building a stage is taking an existing, flat floor and installing a large drop at the edge of it for dramatic effect.

[Andrew C]

Let's all wrap ourselves in cotton wool and stay in bed. Oh, wait... we might fall out of bed; maybe we should hide under it! http://www.blue-room.org.uk/public/style_emoticons/default/dry.gif

[Ynot]

Let's all wrap ourselves in cotton wool and stay in bed. Oh, wait... we might fall out of bed; maybe we should hide under it! http://www.blue-room.org.uk/public/style_emoticons/default/dry.gif

Nope - still no good - we might get bitten by the bugs...

[Robin D]

As I started this, let me say that I'm not a H & S freak. However, I do know that there have been prosecutions for similar. Floor tiles were changed leading to an injury. Link 1 Current inquest Link 2

 

Another quote.

The piece of legislation that is most frequently quoted in these cases is regulation 12 of the Workplace (Health and Safety) Regulations 1992, which states that: "Every floor in the workplace and the surface of every traffic route of a workplace shall be of construction such that the floor or surface of the traffic route is suitable for the purpose for which it is used."

 

Also important are reg.12(2) – "the floor or surface of the traffic route shall have no hole or slope, or be uneven or slippery so as in each case to expose any person to a risk of his health or safety; and every such floor shall have effective means of drainage where necessary" – and reg.12(3) – "so far as reasonably practicable every floor in the workplace and the surface of every traffic route in the workplace shall be kept free from obstructions and from any article or substance, which may cause a person to slip, trip or fall".

 

Note the construction of the wording: "shall have" or "shall be" are absolute duties, with which the employer must comply. The clause "so far as reasonably practicable" in reg.12(3) provides some level of defence, however.

 

I'm not saying what's right or wrong, all I know is that there is yet another inquest taking place locally to me where 'assumptions' made by those that do something day in, day out, are being sorely tested. I would not want to be there?

[themadhippy]

"the floor or surface of the traffic route shall have no hole or slope,

goodbye raked stages then

[Rob_P]

"the floor or surface of the traffic route shall have no hole or slope...

 

...every such floor shall have effective means of drainage where necessary"

 

I'm interested to see how they propose a realistic effective means of drainage without any form of slope or any holes!

[callumb]

Current inquest Link 2

 

 

 

 

That should be thrown out... Its a harbour! Its full of places to trip and fall... The pier is a huge drop (normally) From where I came from just last year someone came out a pub, tripped over the edging on the harbour fell in and died! Its just a fact of the area. Everyone knows that they way fishermen work its the way it is. Its a bunch of pencil pushers coming into an area they really have know idea about. I have lived at a working harbour all my life and the risks can't be helped and is unworkable.

[matt_beal]

"the floor or surface of the traffic route shall have no hole or slope,

goodbye raked stages then

 

Not to mention wheelchair ramps... :huh:

[kerry davies]

Let's not get too silly here. As long as you do the RA and then implement risk reduction measures revealed by that RA, unlike that first case who were idiots, then nothing is prohibited.

 

Gareth A has shown that routed cobbles combined with flat shoes to reduce risk is perfectly acceptable. It is when one does not do the RA or when one fails to implement the measures or when the EHO says something and you ignore them that things can get messy.

 

Nothing is forbidden if you do things right.

doesn't even have the naked chainsaw juggling in it.

[Roderick]

Kerry is right, let's not get silly.

 

Just looking at the quote:

"Every floor in the workplace and the surface of every traffic route of a workplace shall be of construction such that the floor or surface of the traffic route is suitable for the purpose for which it is used."

I have underlined what it is all about. Cobblestone floor for a play, fine. Same floor for a dance piece, probably not.

Let's not compare polished floortiles in a kitchen with a textured floor for a theatre production.

 

And to take a broader view, how would this apply to a farmer herding his cows? That field is his workplace now and quite possible on a slope and uneven.

Does that mean he/she can't go there anymore? That would make the Daily Telegraph.

 

The worst thing in health and safety is people misinterpreting things and then whipping up an outraged frenzy.

Chill, do your RA (but do it realistically) and follow-up on your findings.

You are not going to jail for a cobblestone floor in your theatre production.

[Ynot]

Indeed.

 

Let's set something straight (again).

 

Proper risk management is NOT about removing every single possible risk in an environment.

If that were the case you literally would be sat in a chair wrapped in cotton wool.

 

Risk management is about looking at any given situation and deciding what the potential risks might be, and then deciding whether these risks are either serious enough or likely enough to warrant some action to mitigate them.

That MAY mean putting in place additional safety measures, or educating/training everyone involved about those risks or at worst, removing the risk from the equation completely.

 

An example has been discussed elsewhere (but is no longer on the board) - that of the stage edge - how far do we do to protect from people falling off the stage into a 15 foot deep pit? One way would be to put up a 3 foot rail between the prosc, but of course that's impractical. So we look at visual aids and above all training of the cast/crew about spacial awareness.

 

At times, some or all of the above may be impractical due to physical restrictions or financial implications, which then suggests that the only course might be to remove the risk OR live with the potential consequences. Whether you feel that the latter is justifiable is down to you under the circumstances.

 

 

[Gareth A]

Indeed.

 

Let's set something straight (again).

 

Proper risk management is NOT about removing every single possible risk in an environment.

If that were the case you literally would be sat in a chair wrapped in cotton wool.

 

Risk management is about looking at any given situation and deciding what the potential risks might be, and then deciding whether these risks are either serious enough or likely enough to warrant some action to mitigate them.

That MAY mean putting in place additional safety measures, or educating/training everyone involved about those risks or at worst, removing the risk from the equation completely.

 

An example has been discussed elsewhere (but is no longer on the board) - that of the stage edge - how far do we do to protect from people falling off the stage into a 15 foot deep pit? One way would be to put up a 3 foot rail between the prosc, but of course that's impractical. So we look at visual aids and above all training of the cast/crew about spacial awareness.

 

At times, some or all of the above may be impractical due to physical restrictions or financial implications, which then suggests that the only course might be to remove the risk OR live with the potential consequences. Whether you feel that the latter is justifiable is down to you under the circumstances.

 

Actually according to the news, sitting in a chair for too longs is also bad for your health. And surely being wrapped in cotton wool could lead to death by smothering if you were wrapped fully!?

 

Sitting in chair is bad for your health!