howartp Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 Hi, The stage curtains in our new hall will be around 21m * 7m, opening in the middle. I don't know the weight, but they will be something like hessian cloth rather than velvet. The national theatre design company who designed the room have proposed they be electrically operated, but both the local theatre design/install company and a friend of a colleague who works somewhere in backstage theatre say electric curtains will break down and render them stuck... Our existing hall is only 8.5m * 3.5m and they are manually operated on a winch which works well (untill someone pulls the steel cord manually and it all comes off the winder thing). Any thoughts whether they should be electric, manual winch, manual pulley, or any other solution? Cheers, Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GridGirl Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 I'd be voting for manually operated by winch - it won't break down. I've operated wool serge tabs of nearly that width just on a rope pull and it's doable but a winch just gives you that much more mechanical advantage. I've had too many bad experiences with electrically operated tabs jamming and breaking down... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WiLL Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 Manual winch gives far less room for error by unknowing hands. Electrical motors may well impress the governors but not only have more chance of breaking down but will also require regular maintenance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonathanhill Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 A manual winch is the right thing here. It will be easier to operate, and can always be operated, unlike an electric system if you have suffered a power failure. Regular inspection of the track is advised, to check for possible obstructions, such as cloth ties gumming up the works. Also training on the use of the system to stop people pulling on the steel wire? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerry Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 Electric motors usually have a fixed speed.With a winch system you can open/ shut at whatever speed you like.CheersGerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owain Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 enclose the steel ropes in mesh cage to prevent misoperation or finger accidents Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howartp Posted June 25, 2012 Author Share Posted June 25, 2012 Thank you all - this is what I had said but there was encouragment from others on the team to go electric so I just wanted your opinions. Cheers. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulears Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 21m is a huge amount of curtain to shift though - fast hauling a 12m curtain is tough on the muscles, this one has 50m of hauling rope - so friction is going to be quite high, isn't it? For this length, they'll probably use wire rather than rope hauling on a slotted fixed drum, I'd have thought, rather than just hanging onto a rope. 21m also suggests that the actual hauling speed will need to be very fast - to open the gap in a realistic time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howartp Posted June 25, 2012 Author Share Posted June 25, 2012 21m is a huge amount of curtain to shift though - fast hauling a 12m curtain is tough on the muscles, this one has 50m of hauling rope - so friction is going to be quite high, isn't it? For this length, they'll probably use wire rather than rope hauling on a slotted fixed drum, I'd have thought, rather than just hanging onto a rope. 21m also suggests that the actual hauling speed will need to be very fast - to open the gap in a realistic time. Yes, even our existing hall uses a steel rope winch on what sounds like it is the same as a slotted fixed drum - I wasn't sure how to describe it but that sounds right - so I would think they will do the same in the new hall.http://www.sprucedesign.com/images/uploads/Winch-Manual-Wall-.gifPeter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulears Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 That's the boy - they're hard enough with a normal stage type haul - I do agree that electric often generates problems with reliability and manual backup - but if the effort is considerable, then the current safety policies would indicate that manual handling, where a powered system is available is unacceptable. In this case, I wonder if a manual system involving muscle power and possibly slack wires that could mis-wind perhaps violently if a bit of speed was being used, may simply be deemed unsafe. The small local theatre with this type of manual system on a 8m pros opening needs a burly bloke to open them quickly in one go. Watching a lightweight try to open them quickly is quite funny - seeing them slow down as the effort saps their muscle power. As for the reliability issue - we're using power flying more and more because it's much better than the early types, and cinemas have had power curtain for a fairly long time now. I'm not aware of variable speed system, just the usual fixed speed ones - but I bet they're available. Why install a manual system when power is so much more employee friendly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howartp Posted June 25, 2012 Author Share Posted June 25, 2012 That's the boy - they're hard enough with a normal stage type haul - I do agree that electric often generates problems with reliability and manual backup - but if the effort is considerable, then the current safety policies would indicate that manual handling, where a powered system is available is unacceptable. In this case, I wonder if a manual system involving muscle power and possibly slack wires that could mis-wind perhaps violently if a bit of speed was being used, may simply be deemed unsafe. The small local theatre with this type of manual system on a 8m pros opening needs a burly bloke to open them quickly in one go. Watching a lightweight try to open them quickly is quite funny - seeing them slow down as the effort saps their muscle power. As for the reliability issue - we're using power flying more and more because it's much better than the early types, and cinemas have had power curtain for a fairly long time now. I'm not aware of variable speed system, just the usual fixed speed ones - but I bet they're available. Why install a manual system when power is so much more employee friendly. Ah sorry, I think I misunderstood you. I thought you were saying hauling manual ropes would be too hard, so you better put in a winch - but you're saying electric? Would a geared winch system work better - move curtains further for less work on the handle? I don't know how the actual route of the cable goes with any of these, I just know it goes around the drum and up to the tracks somewhere. The one thing calling me personally to electric is that I often program the lights for smaller events, and going down to open/close the curtains between programming scenes is a pain - a little button would be fantastic! Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjb304 Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 If you go electric make sure you get a quiet motor. The motor at the uni venue I've done lots of shows in is so noisy it can't be used during a show, which really limits the usefulness of the curtains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slipstream Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 Watch the speed spec - Paisley Town Hall have a lovely electric track - the close at the same speed as the ones at the local crematorium - from open to close in about a min - kack all use for a dance show S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigclive Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 Having installed new electric winch operated systems and been to salvage the shredded remains of older neglected systems I would say that wherever possible you should try to use manually winched curtains unless they are big enough to require the powered option. Things to note:- When an electric system breaks down the curtain stays put and often cannot be moved manually without accessing the leaders on the track or de-roping the winch. If you do have an electric system, make sure it's not totally automatic. The dead-mans-handle approach of having to hold your finger on the open and close button for the full travel might be a nuisance, but it guarantees that if a limit fails then the motor won't spend a long time in a stalled state. If you have an older system with the limit switches on the curtain track then make sure they are secure and correctly positioned. They can work loose over time and the actuation arms can go out of place with violent consequences. Make sure that if a motor has overload protection, that it's set correctly with a margin for a slight increase in drag due to dust and age. Get decent track. Flimsy or badly designed track will be an unnecessary source of friction. DO NOT OIL THE TRACK! It will mix with dust and dry into a tarry mess that is very difficult to remove. If a contractor accidentally swaps phases resulting in everything running in reverse, then don't start swapping random wires, forgetting where some go and just tucking them out of sight behind the DIN rail before calling me in to repair it. (I'll not name the venue.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jivemaster Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 If you expect 21m of curtain to be controlled by a human -it's going to be a tough one! I suspect that a curtain that size will need a proper varispeed drive on a big motor especially if fast movement is needed. I'd also look at the rope content of those hand winches, The curtain will only move as far as there is rope on the drum. Yes I'd be looking for soft start and variable speed (but remember that 10metres per second is fast and the cloth will likely fly. See comment about noise too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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