Toronto Stage Collapse

[brainwave-generator]

Discussing it on here is not going to change the amount of risk you come under. You're not going to find stage riggers who couldn't care less who then change their ways and become super-considerate because they read about it on the flaming internet. Believe me when I say that working above peoples heads with heavy steelwork puts home how much responsibility we have far more strongly than reading it on the web.

 

So what should we do? Censor all discussions of stage collapses because it's a topic that makes some people uncomfortable? Perhaps we should ban all discussion of rigging or power in case someone gets an idea into their heads and produces a dangerous installation? No, that would be ridiculous. As Kerry has said above, these threads may come to the attention of production managers and put to the front of their minds the safety issues involved in running an event, which can only be a good thing. What we're trying to promote generally is a culture of safety across the industry (and many other industries), and the only way to achieve that is by talking about safety. The safety of an event isn't just down to the riggers. Everyone has a role to play, however big or small, so anything we can do to raise their awareness of safety the better.

 

You may have rigged a perfectly appropriate stage, but then if the lighting and sound teams turn up with a different set of kit that weighs more, what do you do? Lets say the line array is changed last minute for one that weighs 20% more, but this information never makes it beyond the sound lot, who think it won't matter. Meanwhile, the lighting team bring a few extra movers, and all the movers weigh a bit more than expected because they're a magnetic ballasted lot cross-hired from another company, and no-one on site is even aware that it's happened. At the same time, the video wall manufacturer's data sheet contains an error in the wind loading factors to be applied. Who's now to blame that the structure's overloaded and potentially unsafe? None of the mistakes were made by riggers, they were made by people who wouldn't normally consider rigging safety, and that's the issue. You may know exactly how dangerous temporary structures can be, but does everyone else?

 

And pointing fingers on the internet solves that?

 

Raising safety awareness cannot be achieved efficiently by an internet forum pointing fingers from an uneducated, under-informed standpoint. (Uneducated and under-informed in the specific incident, that is). You can't form a sensible discussion you know nothing about. It will not achieve anything. It's simply unfair on the people you're accusing of not fulfilling their job description.

 

There is no need to stop discussion about rigging. There is simply a need to stop under-informed, ill-educated and ultimately needless finger pointing sessions in the wake of tragic accidents. Just leave it. Talk about something else. Let the professionals deal with it, come to their own well-educated, well-informed decisions, publish a report, and then you can discuss the report to death.

 

I think trying to suggest that crew involved in the hanging of heavy loads are ignorant to structural suitability is also ridiculous, and to suggest that an internet discussion about it would change their ways, even moreso. Every PA company I've ever installed points for has been thorough in which boxes they are hanging, how much they weigh, right down to the weight of the fly frames and any additional flying hardware.

 

I do appreciate the point you are trying to make, but I think you are under-estimating the standard of people involved in such events. Hanging any load, particularly above the heads of people (public, performers or crew) is not taken lightly by anybody. When these accidents do occur, the cause can be complex and composed of numerous individual causes which in isolation may not be enough to cause the incident in question. The cause may also be something that was not immediately thought of. I can think of an incident where the loading dock of a stage collapsed and injured several people, the armchair experts were screaming blue murder about the stage not being fit for purpose and the stage crew not taking their job seriously and all the normal stuff, the actual reason it occurred was because a truck driver engaged the wrong gear and reversed 50 tons of lorry into it and knocked it over. Nothing structurally wrong with it, it was never designed to have a 50 ton lorry driven into it.

[Adam L F]

Regardless of who or what is at fault, and what or who caused the structure to fail, thoughts are with the family and friends of the technician who sadly lost his life, as it seems through no fault of his own.

 

 

[Simon Lewis]

Of course we should not ignore the human tragedgy, and neither should we speculate or point the finger.

 

However, this is our workplace, and we do need to a) be aware of such occurances and b) be aware of the implications - especially as this is the latest in a number of fatalities related to stage collapses (a point that the media is now picking up on).

 

Although not the case with the Indiana State Fair (where a comprehensive and analytical pair of reports were carried out and placed in the public domain) the usual pattern for such events is that after the initial media coverage it is hard to find out whether a report was ever published, let alone get hold of it.

 

The second issue is a genuine accident (i.e. it 'happens by chance') is quite rare. Although various bodies may interpret the term accident and incident in different ways, it may generally be taken that an accident in the workplace indicates something was wrong within the management system. Analysis will usually highlight an error, an assumption or a mistake that led to the event taking place. So whilst I would not for one minute wish to engage in armchair speculation, I do want to know what happened (as far as can be reasonably determined) and to follow its progression. That will inform my practice and knowledge.

 

Without discussion on dedicated forums such as Blue Room, I might have easily have missed yesterday's tragedy.

 

Simon Lewis

Edited June 17, 2012 by Simon Lewis

[brainwave-generator]

Regardless of who or what is at fault, and what or who caused the structure to fail, thoughts are with the family and friends of the technician who sadly lost his life, as it seems through no fault of his own.

 

 

 

Does it? Can you share this information, there only seems to be news thus far of a stage collapse and not what caused it.

[Junior8]

Just because you work underneath stage roofs it doesn't give you the right to speculate who's to blame when one collapses.

 

Well I work regulartaly under all sorts of temporary structures and nothing said here is going to stop me speculating - even if I don't write down what I'm thinking.

 

This may be a tragedy but that shouldn't stop debate about it.

Edited June 17, 2012 by Junior8

[DZA Technical]

Timd. You make some VERY valuable points, and I believe these are the kind of comments we should encourage.

 

No-one has suggested censoring these type of topics. My own point was exactly this: Just posting you-tube videos or photographs and either not commenting at all, or first speculating on what people 'think' might have happened is ghoulish. We need to wait for informed information. Please think first about all the people involved, not just those who were directly injured, but those who will have witnessed the awful event, or those who will be thought to be directly responsible, even though - as Timd has quite correctly said - they may have known nothing about 'the last straw'.

[skdean]

Some more info here. We need to look out for each other. We also need to feelthat we can speak out with impunity if we see something that is potentially dangerous.

[d.breeze]

Regardless of who or what is at fault, and what or who caused the structure to fail, thoughts are with the family and friends of the technician who sadly lost his life, as it seems through no fault of his own.

 

 

 

Does it? Can you share this information, there only seems to be news thus far of a stage collapse and not what caused it.

 

While I agree we do not have enough information to cast blame on any individual or component of the structure, it's a pretty safe bet that the band's drum tech isn't responsible for a roof collapse.

 

My thoughts are with everyone involved in the incident and their families. Hopefully this speight of collapses will heighen everyone's awareness to the importance of working safely in our industry.

[uniman1]

I do appreciate the point you are trying to make, but I think you are under-estimating the standard of people involved in such events. Hanging any load, particularly above the heads of people (public, performers or crew) is not taken lightly by anybody. When these accidents do occur, the cause can be complex and composed of numerous individual causes which in isolation may not be enough to cause the incident in question. The cause may also be something that was not immediately thought of. I can think of an incident where the loading dock of a stage collapsed and injured several people, the armchair experts were screaming blue murder about the stage not being fit for purpose and the stage crew not taking their job seriously and all the normal stuff, the actual reason it occurred was because a truck driver engaged the wrong gear and reversed 50 tons of lorry into it and knocked it over. Nothing structurally wrong with it, it was never designed to have a 50 ton lorry driven into it.

 

I disagree with this (my bold) we have companies coming in to our venue every day. and it seems to be a case of get the stuff hung, put on some safeties, job done. Admittedly this is indoors, but I have worked on a lot of outdoor rigs, and the same attitude used to prevail. If I am putting up an fixture, I ensure the clamp is tight, a safety is on and there is power. I do think about the weight of the fixture and the rating of the safety sometimes, but often just take it out of the case and trust the warehouse. To be honest I don't really know what the ratings mean. I know that a rated chain can carry a certain mass, and takes into account a sudden drop( does it?) but does the length of the said chain matter? Also, I really don't know the weight of a source4 or a mac250 of the top of my head.

 

As for overloading structures, these things are planned a long time in advance, and for high end events the planning will probably hold true, but for the rest of us equipment changes on the day due to availability and the technician's ideas

 

Is there some sort of database showing the weights of common light, sound and projector equipment?

[KidRay]

Some interesting points here, and some absolute tosh. I'll let you decide which is which.

My point, which I stand by, is that if this sort of discussion makes one person involved in one show somewhere in the world think twice, double or triple check something, or question something which is not directly their responsibility, and that leads to the prevention of injury or death, then it's worth it.

 

Yes, I will be interested, as many others will, in the actual cause(s) of the collapse, when the investigation is complete some months down the line, but I'm prepared to put up with a bit of speculation, ghoulish or otherwise, if it keeps the subject of safety fresh in everyone's mind.

 

Incidentally, referring back to b-g's post #11, my brother-in-law was killed in a road traffic accident at the age of 19, before the huge popularity of internet forums, and I'm sure people speculated about the cause of that; was he speeding, drunk etc. If that discussion/speculation led to one person driving home a bit slower, not having an extra drink, looking twice at a junction, then speculate away.

 

(the other driver was drinking - milk, as it happens, while driving)

[woody2]

Just posting you-tube videos

 

I had met the guy so did not comment

 

lack of brainwave is just a troll protected by some mods

 

I am out

 

Edited June 18, 2012 by woody2

[brainwave-generator]

Just posting you-tube videos

 

I had met the guy so did not comment

 

lack of brainwave is just a troll

 

 

 

I am not trolling.

 

I am quite serious that it is not fair to appoint blame or finger point until the facts have been established by the formal investigation.

 

Nothing can be learned until it is made certain what went wrong. So the most respectful thing this internet community can do is shut up and listen until the facts are established.

 

Please take your 'trolling' comments elsewhere. I am completely serious when I say that speculative comments when talking about the death of crew in a stage collapse is unfair, especially on those who may wrongly have the finger pointed at them in their complete innocence. I have no time for that.

[Bryson]

I think if there's one thing B-G and the mods can agree on is no-one is protecting anyone. What a bizarre conspiracy theory you have there Woody. :** laughs out loud **:

 

The topic of "should we discuss this" comes up over and over again, with no real resolution ever. Therefore, I propose we drop the argument. Well reasoned discussion is welcome. If you believe someone else's reasoning is faulty, then criticize away.

[paulears]

I note one thing is clear on the BR where rigging is concerned. None of our rigging (as in proper rigging) people ever seem to be slapdash or less than safety minded. Often (me included) we've got into deep water by detailed questionable processes being pulled apart by those who know. I can't see that as a bad thing. As a person who sometimes works around or even under heavy items put there by others, there's obviously concern that what is up, stays up - but to the non-expert, so much of this stuff looks to the person on the ground to defy physics. Looking at the pictures of this one - to my untrained eye there does seem to be a huge amount of what looks like scaffolding - not the usual truss. Unloading just a few boxes of decking legs makes even the in-expert realise how heavy scaff is.

 

I'm not really a festival person, and I understand the concept of the truss used in these events - but can I ask? Is it usual to build the means of supporting the cover/tilt/roof out of scaff?

[ianl]

Large scafold towers either side of stage to suport the roof is a design thats been around for years, just not so common in this country these days. In theory its a good concept especially if the towers have a large floor area.

 

Its a bit like builders choosing a prefabricated aluminium scaf tower or erecting steel scafold on site. The steel scafold can be built stronger and to fit better, but requires lots more competance on site to erect.

 

What suprised me from what I can see in the pictures is that the roof does not appear to sit on top of the towers but rather apears to sit between them. To me this would seam to rely on whatever is clamping them together rather than gravity