Toronto Stage Collapse

[kerry davies]

Mornin', Bryson. I have tried with no success to find any report on the Bluesfest/Cheap Trick incident from last year. I know the Ministry of Labour investigated that one and they are doing so with the Toronto failure. Do you know of any links to reports or whether they have actually published anything?

 

Paul, try this; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dO0JrGm6H54 which shows a scaffold based stage similar to the Boss stage at Wembley Stadium that went on to be used for Live Aid. The old U2 Gold stage was a Kwikform one and the same designs were used for the eighties Michael Jackson shows. The towers were solidly linked by ladder-racks and I-beams however as ianl, states. I too have doubts about a hybrid system of scaff and floating roof. The calculations would be a nightmare, computers or not.

 

To be more positive, the Showstop and evac of the Elton John, Blackpool concert shows what can be achieved if discussion takes place. ZZ Top's chief rigger also recently called a Showstop and Linkin Park have signed up to the Event Safety Alliance guidelines so things are improving if only slowly. We do need to talk about the generality of these things, it makes us better at what we do. It may also save lives.

[Smiffy]

It's incredibly sad news regarding Scott, and my thoughts are with his family, friends, the band, and fellow crew members. It's despicable that it should happen, but it has.

 

Reasoned debate is good, and it's human nature to speculate, from any discussion, only good can come of it. If even one opinion is changed it is a move in the right direction.

 

I'm particularly interested as I have a show coming up under one of these next week, with a well known touring Artiste. I shall certainly have my eyes and ears open on stage, and be doing a considerable amount of looking up. I can only hope that all necessary precautions have been taken and all goes according to plan on the day. I'll certainly be speaking up if im not happy with anything, but, as we don't carry a touring rigger (kits always up when we get there) who makes the final judgement call?

[brainwave-generator]

My posts seem to have been taken entirely the wrong way. I am not trying at all to suggest a blackout on rigging related topics, or suggest that it's a taboo topic.

 

I really just think it's unfair to feature any kind of "it looks like X happened" or "I don't think Y was suitable" from people who evidently have very little background on which to make such damning statements.

 

The danger is mainly that after 5 pages of discussing how, for example, the structure was overloaded; everyone starts to believe it. And it moves away from hypothetical discussion, maybe not for all, but certainly for some; and particularly newcomers to the thread can often come under the immediate assumption that the structure was indeed overloaded. Once that becomes a 'fact', you are immediately thus accusing the riggers of not performing their job properly. The house rigger should have known the roof capacity, didn't adhere to it, and somebody died. So by inferring that overload was the failure, you are indirectly inferring that the house rigger has blood on his hands. And then that becomes 'fact' too. And it's utterly unfair for anybody that widespread belief is that they are responsible for the death of somebody else, especially when it may later conspire that they are not.

 

Good reputations can take years to build and seconds to destroy. And in the freelancing industry, it is upon your reputation that you pay the rent, and put food in your mouth. It is not at all fair to jeopardise anybody's reputation until solid facts have been established.

 

I am more than happy to discuss the nature of scaffold roofs, I am more than happy to discuss show stop procedures, I do not want it to become a taboo topic. I just strongly feel that any direct references to this tragic accident and speculation as to what caused it should be avoided for the time being, for the sake of respecting those involved until a formal investigation identifies who is at fault.

[ramdram]

Of course we speculate on BR...it's what we do as a species across the planet...it sounds a bit too precious to state we should not speculate; after all it is a forum..and nobody sat around the Forum in Rome waiting for the barbarians to arrive on the doorstep before evolving an RA on "Intruders at the Gates, action plan to get rid of".

 

Of course there's blame to be laid somewhere...duff design, duff construction, duff manufacture of the components, abuse of said components before the fact and during the fact...insufficient monitoring of the scaff structure...overloading the wrong part of the structure...not realizing parts of the structure were overloaded.

 

The report might, if we speculate (further) from the other recent findings, attach a proportion of blame to all of the above to some degree...I don't suppose "Act of God" is going to be enough.

 

What really matters, to my mind, is what we" do about the findings. Looks like the "authorities" in Indiana twigged quite quickly after the fact...yet dare we speculate why this issue was not addressed much earlier...especially as there is a history of nasty weather?

 

These events certainly made me a bit more aware of stuff we hang at our venue and whether it is permissible to "mission creep" as it were...no was the answer.

 

As for folk knowing about hanging stuff overhead...that does sound unduly optimistic. I have now learnt, via BR and links, that if anyone who wants to hang stuff at our venue (very rare as it happens) does NOT ask about the SWL of whatever they want to attach to BEFORE they arrive then you need to be a tad "concerned".

[erroneousblack]

Thoughts are with a fellow worker who lost his life needlessly. Over the years I've been seconds away from being "offed" myself. And without wanting to sound like I'm bragging I've saved the lives of two people in a work situation. In both cases of nearly dieing, it was due to management meddling. In both cases of "saving" it was due to management not listening to H&S concerns. I strongly believe there is no such thing as an "accident", but an incident that could be avoided!

[HolyPhish]

Firstly, my condolences to Scotts family/friends/coworkers.

 

Secondly, as a newbie to this world of giant stages and outdoor rigging, and out of sheer curiosity, when would the report be released on the 'incident'?

 

I was intrigued by the report previously posted on BR and wondered what timeframe is usually attached to this thing.

 

 

[LXbydesign]

I do find it obsurd that some people are finger pointing at the poor chap with the 'he must have been doing something wrong' mentality. Really?

 

Quite why a drum tech would need to have anything to do with or affected by rigging and structures is beyond me. Ironic as it sounds the guy was simply in the wrong place at the wrong time while performing his duties. My thoughts are all out to his family and friends.

 

I meanwhile will ignore all the internet tittle-tattle and wait for the confirmed, reported cause of failure.

[kerry davies]

Would you please point out the BR post which "pointed the finger " at Scott? I think you will find that you may have misread this thread entirely.

 

You are making a statement in opposition to something that does not exist which is itself "internet tittle-tattle."

 

In answer to Phishy's query, see my post to Bryson. By Canadian precedent it may be years before anything definitive is known, if ever. Big Valley was 3 years ago and I can find no Ministry of Labour report on that collapse.

 

Meanwhile internet safety groups all over the world are trying to learn something from this horror. If people do not want to learn then they are perfectly at liberty to ignore the "tittle-tattle."

[ianl]

What I found quite inapropriate was the way every news report finished with a fan who had traveled a long way showing their ticket and saying how disapointed they were. Not blaming the fans, but the journalists who felt missing a concert was more important ( better news) than injuries and deaths

[light-man]

My thoughts are with Scott's family, friends and those who knew him. It's certainly had an impact on the industry.

 

Some very interesting points have been made in this thread and I this its certainly good to be discussing this situation - I don't think anyone is bypassing the fact a life has been lost by discussing the whys or possibilities of the tragedy. As others have said, if it highlights potential issues, or just another way at looking at something when planning, it can't bad.

 

I am interested to read the report on the incident, when it gets released (if they release a public copy, that is).

[Roderick]

I believe the focus should be 'why' and not 'who'.

Personally I don't care who did or didn't do what, but I am very interested in what happened that caused things to go wrong.

 

In recent years I have done research into the Love Parade tragedy in Duisburg and the collapse in Indianapolis. And I have presented my findings at the VMA Congress in Australia and to anyone who would listen. My aim is not to point fingers, the courts can sort that bit out, but to plant seeds in people's minds for things to look out for. And encourage people to ask questions. Too often there is still an attitude 'they're the professional, they know what they are doing'. Professionals they may be but they are also human, and humans make mistakes for a myriad of reasons.

If one person asking one question that may trigger another look at things and prevent an incident by asking that question it is a good thing.

Safety is not something that can be assigned to any one person, it is a collective responsibility to look out for ourselves and everyone we work with.

 

If you see something you are not sure about, ask! I strongly believe in asking questions, if there is an immediate answer then things are probably thought about but if there is a hesitation and head scratching then maybe you have spotted something that was overlooked. The secret then is to leave it with the people in charge, don't go running around yelling "Look what I just spotted", 'cause that doesn't help anyone.

 

Stop the blame game, but don't stop talking about things. Analysis of failures is a complicated matter and often little suggestions or ideas may just open up a new line of thought.

I have had lengthy conversations with the engineer who wrote the report on the Indianapolis collapse which opened up a whole new world for me. Sadly it is very rare that such in-depth reports are made public. There is still no definitive answer on what happened in Duisburg which killed 27 people. But that shouldn't mean we can't learn lessons from it.

[andylouder]

http://www.thestar.com/news/article/1213272--radiohead-stage-collapse-four-companies-asked-to-comply-with-investigation

 

 

There was a quote in this piece that I thought was a bit odd , I have no idea if it was made to this news agency with specific reference to this accident , or taken out of context from elsewhere.

 

'In an industry without regulated safety guidelines, the onus should fall on the artist to ensure a stage is safe, said Jim Digby, director of touring for Linkin Park and executive director of the Event Safety Alliance.'

 

The onus should fall on the artist ?

 

I would have thought the last person you would consult on the safety of a temporary structure was a guitar player in a rock n roll band , it's not really their area of expertise is it ?

Whether or not their name is on the board of directors of the production company that co-ordinates their touring requirements ( I am sure that's just for business/tax purposes ).

 

Especially at international level , I would have thought the onus for safety is with the professional companies engaged by the concert promoters , whether they be sound, staging , lights or security.

 

Just seemed an odd quote attributed to a spokesperson for the ESA.

[brony]

http://www.thestar.com/news/article/1213272--radiohead-stage-collapse-four-companies-asked-to-comply-with-investigation

 

 

There was a quote in this piece that I thought was a bit odd , I have no idea if it was made to this news agency with specific reference to this accident , or taken out of context from elsewhere.

 

'In an industry without regulated safety guidelines, the onus should fall on the artist to ensure a stage is safe, said Jim Digby, director of touring for Linkin Park and executive director of the Event Safety Alliance.'

 

The onus should fall on the artist ?

 

I would have thought the last person you would consult on the safety of a temporary structure was a guitar player in a rock n roll band , it's not really their area of expertise is it ?

Whether or not their name is on the board of directors of the production company that co-ordinates their touring requirements ( I am sure that's just for business/tax purposes ).

 

Especially at international level , I would have thought the onus for safety is with the professional companies engaged by the concert promoters , whether they be sound, staging , lights or security.

 

Just seemed an odd quote attributed to a spokesperson for the ESA.

 

I worked in the live event industry here in Canada on and off for 10 years, and I think that article does highlight an issue that does not seem to be entirely isolated to this country: the pass the buck mentality.

 

I know that Elton John might not be the best person to attest to the strucural integrity of his touring rig (although who knows) but the buck has to stop somewhere. Who should be ultimately responsible?

 

With multiple companies all involved in this type of show, everyone assumes that the riggers/sound crew/lighting crew/local crew/touring crew/event organizer/venue owner is making sure its all going to plan. If you were brought in to hang lights - you hang them. You're not trained about how heavy they are. You do as you're told and get home as quickly as you can so you can because your GF is waiting. Someone else will take care of it.

 

Whether proper oversight is the issue in this particular case is unimportant. But these tragedies always raise the issue, and without any kind of governing body, or industry-specific regulation here in Canada we will never learn from what happened when it is discovered. And in 10 years Scott's death will just be an old story, and not the horrific lesson it really is.

[ramdram]

Crikey Brony, your remarks on some of the aspects are appalling...the fact that you mention from your experience in other places there was no oversight bod or the lampies don't know the weight of their kit(????!!!!).

 

Or perhaps the worst is "these tragedies always raise the issue..."

 

Or is it that you would be obliged to hang kit and, from your post, and by my inference, the LD not be concerned about the overall weight of the load on whatever...

 

Does this imply that nobody even signs off the design (against vagaries of the weather/ground anchorage etc) before the truss/scaff leaves the yard...or signs off the truss/scaff when erected or has organised an inspection regime for the entire structure.

 

I find this almost unbelievable, yet the incident has occurred...and there has to be a reason or even multiple reasons.

 

The points raised in your post is almost on a par with whistleblowing but could indeed be a contributory factor(s) in this latest incident.

 

Speculation this may be of course but it might be a shrewd notion for anyone involved in temporary structures to review their practices before the publication of a report...why wait?

[Rigger]

On the 'Artist Responsibility' Question it is interesting to note that on the 9th June, ZZTop pulled one of their gigs on advice from their head tour Rigger deeming the structure to not be safe. Additionaly it is Sugarland who are being sued post Indiana. I realise that American Regulations may play a part but it is the artist who the audience have paid to see and they don't necessarily know who the other parties involved are.

 

The official Investigators (The Provincial Ministry of Labour) have identified Ticker Tape Touring LLP which is owned by the Radiohead band members, as one of four companies involved.

 

The others are Optex Staging Services (sold the stage system to Live Nation), Nasco Staffing Solutions (Local Crew) and Live Nation (Promoters and owners of the stage)

 

It is not perhaps the Artist responsibility directly but the Artist may have holdings or entities that are responsible and in those instances it is the Artist's responsibility to ensure every step is taken to ensure safety and adherance to regulations.