Toronto Stage Collapse

[kerry davies]

Far from getting the bugles blowing, Tom, I reckon I would be on the blower to HSE reporting an unreported scaffolding collapse. While here Tom, a question. Would you ever in your wildest imaginings dry-hire your staging for erection by local crew? I doubt it, yet it happened in Toronto.

 

No Jono, I don't think they are too big and complex just too big and complex for anyone but the knowledgable to build, see Tom's post. It is, like lots of stuff in this business, a lot harder than it looks because that is what we do, make the difficult look easy. I have lost count of the times I have linked to the Steeldeck Method Statement on BR so even the basics are sometimes only half-understood by those using them.

 

The same with trussing and other structural elements, it looks dead easy yet people still get dead rather than easy. That's why I also repeat "get a man who can" all the time. It is pretty obvious that the Israeli fatality resulted from persons unknown thinking they knew what they were doing when even from past experience they did not and had learned little. Tied to a jeep, my arse.

 

Karl is right, I was trained to examine automotive failures which are pretty easy to spot in order that designers could have feedback. That is why discussion is vital, lessons should be being learned in our industry. Fidenae was one thousand nine hundred and eighty five years ago, time we got better? A cheap structure collapsed back then and resulted in promoter licensing, why haven't we got something similar today?

 

Again I repeat it is down to systems failure not individual ######-ups which those systems should be designed to reduce to elimination level where possible. We all have these systems intrinsically, I have yet to put my socks on over my boots in the morning.

[brainwave-generator]

Far from getting the bugles blowing, Tom, I reckon I would be on the blower to HSE reporting an unreported scaffolding collapse. While here Tom, a question. Would you ever in your wildest imaginings dry-hire your staging for erection by local crew? I doubt it, yet it happened in Toronto.

 

Are you serious? You're saying you can't dry hire stuff anymore because people might get hurt?

 

Sorry Kerry but that's absurd. You can't protect against accidents by not hiring stuff out. What about plant machinery, should that only be available on purchase and not on hire because only the owner knows how to use it? I'm not sure festivals are going to be very happy about having to buy their Telehandlers for 2 weeks use. Rigging hire companies.... should they stop hiring truss and motors too?

 

Just because something is available on dry hire it doesn't mean it's automatically going to get picked up by a bunch of idiots and put up backwards. You just need to ensure that you stipulate it is only for use by competent people. There are a lot of people out there perfectly capable of installing stage and rigging products to a high standard, who simply don't have the capital to buy them.

 

You can dry hire pneumatic drills. You can dry hire 200kVA generators. You can dry hire hot air paint-strippers. You can dry hire tractors with hedge trimmers bolted to the front. You can dry hire 5 ton chain hoists. You can dry hire wood chippers. You can't stop people dry hiring stuff just because idiots might use it. It's the idiots fault for using it wrong, not yours for hiring it to them, providing you make it clear to them that they should not use it unless they are competent in doing so.

 

Things in this business would be a lot harder if you had to own everything you use. And many decent companies in this industry would suffer if dry hire of their products wasn't permitted.

[tom w]

It was a break in a roof, which could have been a pre existing fracture which hadn't been spotted (which is down to poor inspection procedure and possibly under-skilled staff) or as a result of an uneven lift...It's easier to run 4 motors in sync than the 4 hand winches that they used. The client dealt with the other supplier and any reporting which may or may not have taken place. I think it would have been outside of my remit to do what could be perceived as 'mud slinging'. My knowledge of the problem was not much more than "this one is broken, please help" The client had a large and efficient site crew who had already 'derigged and removed' the offending article by the time we arrived.

Even simple rostra can be assembled wrong. Once you get onto outdoor staging then the capacity for error is much greater. As we're Layher based we use Layher for calcs. However one wrongly placed brace, ledger etc can have a great affect on the structure and render the calcs null and void.

Our only recent dry hire was some Layher spigots to help a client out. We don't let others assemble what we provide. Although we have occasionally had crew provided, I much prefer to use my own teams. 50% of the 12 damaged beams that we have incurred in 11 years are down to 1 small dry hire in the early years :(

[Roderick]

Are you serious? You're saying you can't dry hire stuff anymore because people might get hurt?

That is not what Kerry suggested.

There are things, such as complex roof structures, that probably should not be available for a dry-hire.

Unless you know exactly how to construct it and what to check to confirm it has been build correctly, you are asking for trouble.

 

You wouldn't allow anyone to drive away in your car if you didn't know they had a license, would you.

Plant is fairly easy to manage by checking people have to required training and tickets.

Stage structures are a lot different with too many options to do it incorrectly.

[the kid]

If someone posted it I missed it but http://www.lsionline.co.uk/news/story/PLASA-issues-statement-on-Radiohead-stage-collapse/M5X1GZ - PLASA has issued a statement. From my reading it seems they are trying to lobby a broader purple guide to include construction that covers world wide.

[ramdram]

And if the training is there to ensure these standards are attained and indeed maintained then all the better. I would like to believe that there was/is nothing malicious behind the recent events but simply a lack of understanding regarding the forces of Nature and allowance thereof..

 

I allude to having someone who just scraped a "pass" sort of thing cf someone with an "A*+ with distinction" in designing "a" the temporary structure. Might even be an idea to include a module on meteorology perhaps.

[kerry davies]

Yes but "they" are not trying to lobby anyone. Some of their members are involved but individuals led the way in forming the ESA. PLASA are one of their corporate supporters rather than founder members. Just nit-picking but the press release is a bit "spinny". ESA.

 

People in the UK sent Jim Digby the IStructE guide and Purple Guide together with links to the new HSE website after he and a few US PM's issued a rather bare "Our bands demand this..." document regarding stages and he took it from there. That is why Linkin Park, Jim's employers, are involved so heavily.

 

Indiana temporarily adopted the Purple Guide and the scope for using that as a political crowbar to open other legislatures became obvious. Roderick was and is working like a Trojan in Oz, really big players like AEG and Stageco got onboard and away we all go. You too can become a non-contributory member of ESA and lobby for greater safety. You don't have to be in the publishing business hoping to produce the new guide or even selling existing publications. ;)

[Bryson]

Mornin', Bryson. I have tried with no success to find any report on the Bluesfest/Cheap Trick incident from last year. I know the Ministry of Labour investigated that one and they are doing so with the Toronto failure. Do you know of any links to reports or whether they have actually published anything?

 

 

 

 

I still can't find the report, but a spokesman has indicated that the report concludes that there were no intrinsic flaws in the design of the Bluesfest stage - that it was simply a weather occurrence outside the design parameters.

 

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/story/2012/07/07/ottawa-bluesfest-2011-collapse-dueto-weather.html

 

 

[kerry davies]

Thank you Bryson, much appreciated.

 

Not good enough however to just say "extreme weather" and leave it at that. What gives the lie to "non-preventable act of God" is the final paragraph.

Bluesfest hired a new stage company from Nashville this year, as well as a structural engineer to independently assess its stages and a weather service out of Halifax to supply specific weather reports daily.

Why pay all that extra if the original incident was "unavoidable"?

 

Keep an eye on The ESA who may be about to release a North American Purple Book. Things are moving really swiftly on this and much cred to BR member Roderick who has moved mountains in double-quick time.

[Bryson]

Indeed: I suspect the report indicates that no-one did anything prosecutable. But that doesn't mean that the PR damage/basic human decency (delete as applicable) doesn't dictate that they go belt-and-braces next time.

 

See also: weather outside the design parameters becoming more frequent = need to change the design parameters.

[Roderick]

Thanks Kerry!

I am really hoping that the Event Safety Alliance concept becomes a worldwide organisation.

We all face the same risks and problems, let's share the solutions.

 

There was one comment on the article I found very interesting. It stated that it may be acceptable that temporary structures not always survive extreme weather but the lack of warnings to the public and performers is unacceptable. I very much agree with that.

There is only so much you can do to maintain structural integrity, not having procedures in place to deal with inclement weather is unforgivable.

One of the areas I really hope to focus on is the inclusion of a chapter on emergency procedures in the Australian Event Safety Guide.

 

For the Australian viewers, please have a look here and register your interest! Event Safety Alliance Australia

[Bryson]

Keep an eye on The ESA who may be about to release a North American Purple Book. Things are moving really swiftly on this and much cred to BR member Roderick who has moved mountains in double-quick time.

 

http://www.eventsafetyalliance.org/#!in_the_news/cbr6

http://www.eventsafe...g/#!about/c1vw1

http://media.wix.com...540af95d4e0.pdf

 

Our Mission:

 

• Adapt "The Purple Guide" in collaboration with our European partners, creating and managing the working and steering groups of industry professionals in the US, with the goal of creating "The Event Safety Guide US," a universal set of best practices for the industry

Methinks someone should tell them there are three whole countries in North America, not just the USA... Baby steps, I suppose. :huh:

 

It's a good move in principle, but nothing gets a Canadian's back up more than the suggestion that US Standards should just automatically apply here because "it's all the same, isn't it?" A problem of perception could easily become a problem in implementation.

 

 

I am really hoping that the Event Safety Alliance concept becomes a worldwide organisation.

We all face the same risks and problems' date=' let's share the solutions.

[/quote']

Indeed.

[kerry davies]

I am positive that they are not being "superior" at all and the continuity of names working both sides of the parallel make it Pan-American in nature.

 

I do take the point though and must reiterate that it is UK guidance that the US wishes to adapt and adopt on a "why re-invent the wheel" basis. Canada could do worse and because the two nations industry is so interconnected I have no doubt it will join in at some point.

 

BTW the US "professionals" include as founders, members of the PSA from over here, a couple of Canadians and at least one Aussie/American and it isn't nationalist in any sense. Hopefully Roderick will be proven accurate in that it will become a global movement.

If I could teach the world to sing etc but it doesn't have to be a cacophony.

[Bryson]

Oh, I'm sure the best of intentions are there. I'm just suggesting that a change in wording might be in order... :)

 

I've actually let the CITT office know that it's probably something they should investigate getting involved in.

[Junior8]

It makes you realize just how good most of the time the regulators are here in publishing findings speedily and in full. After finding a mention of the verdict on-line I spent a lot of time last week searching the Min of Lab website assuming that there would at least be a press release. Nothing as far as I could see.

 

It'd be interesting to see some wind tunnel tests on TDSs I think.

Edited July 18, 2012 by Junior8