Coping without flies.

[BTSmith96]

For the finale of a musical next year, we thought it would be very impressive if a huge, stage-sized (we think it's approx. 9x6m) Union Flag fall in, effectively as a curtain.

 

Our issue is the process of actually getting it to fall in. We do not have any flies above the stage, so it would need to be rolled / folded all the way along for the duration of the show; some mechanism would need to be in place to suddenly drop it over the stage. This method would need to adhere to health and safety laws, (which rules out most of the cheaper options), and also be within a fairly low budget.

 

One way which I thought would work is using vast lengths of rope. A demonstration on a much smaller scale is here (sorry for the inane narration on my part). The flag would be suspended above the stage, and rolled beforehand by a large technical team. It is tied up with many 'quick release knots' (I don't know the proper name, I just know how to do them). These enable the flag to be tied tight, but should one of the loose ends of rope be pulled (but not the other) the entire knot will suddenly come undone. All these ends of rope can be tied to another, which runs along the length of the flag. When this is pulled, all will undo and the flag will fall.

 

Of course, the actual system will need to be more advanced – the rope for pulling would be a separate rope tied off at the end, and would be put through a pully on the side, to avoid it also falling down over the stage. The flag, too, would be suspended by more than rope; for example, a new track might be installed (we currently have one at the back and one in between the proscenium and the back. This would need to be at the front, immediately behind the pros arch).

 

I have devised another option: if we were to construct a full width housing for the flag with a hinged bottom and open top, the flag could be rolled up and put in from above. The hinged side could be controlled by a solenoid (I'm not an electrician, so I might be completely wrong with this next bit!). As I understand it, if a signal is sent to the solenoid(s) then the lock will be broken and the side will flap down, allowing the flag to unfurl across the stage. Though slightly higher budget, this is probably safer.

 

—

 

There is a second problem facing this, though – that is the bows. At the end of the big ensemble finale, 2 of the leads go outside. The finale ends, in a spoof of 'One Day More', with lots of counterpoint, a waving union jack at the back, and then (hopefully!) this. The 2 leads then have a brief reprise of several earlier love songs, become engaged to be married and walk off. The show logo ("KEEP CALM AND CARRY ON") is then projected onto the flag (a gobo). The words on a Union Jack is, incidentally, our logo.

 

Unfortunately, after the big orchestral outro, there is then the issue of bows. Thus, the flag must be removed, so that the stage is visible once more. Again, there are several ways this could be done.

 

We could simply drop it down (like the gauze at the beginning of Billy Elliot). This, during a blackout, would mean ASMs could take it off, and the bows could commence. Our actual curtains could be used at the end.

 

Of course, there may be the issue of cost for that sort of track, in which case we could winch the track – then, whilst the first few bows happen FOT (i.e. the actual curtain) people can be frantically fiddling with the flag.

 

However, this all seems like quite a hassle. It could be possible to do it in the manner of some blinds. That is, where two strings hang in front of the blind, and loop back. When pulled, the blind rolls up the back. This system could be adapted to work for our giant flag, perhaps.

 

Another blind inspired way would simply be to put the entire thing on a roller, and to hoist it back up.

 

—

 

We have thought of a much simpler way to get around this, which will almost certainly be possible, and still quite good. However, I still think that, if we can pull this off, if would certainly look incredible. So, any help is much appreciated, but not urgent!

 

If you have any points to make about my suggestions, suggestions of your own, or thoughts on the cheapest way to get a massive Union Jack, please respond! (and sorry for the length…)

 

[jonathanhill]

I would do a double kabuki drop.

 

Initially the rolled cloth would be contained within a modified petal/flower/rice/balloon drop that can be released via an offstage line.

 

Once the cloth has been revealed, it can be released to drop via a second kabuki drop.

 

The mechanism can either be relatively cheap, (3x1, cloth, lines, hinge pins) or more expensive (Elektro Kabuki). The cheaper the system, the more complicated it is.

 

The Elektro Kabuki system can be hired from Flint in town.

[paulears]

If a kabuki style drop isn't for you, then you could stick it on a wipe track and simply run it across with a person pulling it. Or you could consider a roller cloth - but 9m is a difficult one because the rollers are difficult to make rigid in that length so the don't bend when rolled. very often people successfully bodge them with carpet tube on narrower widths, but 9m plus the flag weight means something tougher is required. I did see a wide one a year or so ago done with a width of truss, that had foam added to the flat size of the square truss to make it circular. This came in fine, but was very slow going out. I'd personally try Kabuki first - but of course once down, it's down. Else wipe it across!

[BTSmith96]

Thanks – that looks like it'd work, if we get the tech dept. on side for its installation!

[cedd]

Does it have to fly all the way out? Could you not drop a pair of lines down behind it whilst it's in, clip them to the bottom and then at the given moment, hoist the bottom up to grid height so it folded in half. People would be able to walk under it for bows, though it wouldn't be fully out, and it might actually look quite good with it going out a different way to how it came in. Of course, you'd have to talk to your LD as the hanging fold of cloth would block any back lighting. It's easily dropped back in again though for the audience to walk out to.

[the kid]

I think, I may be wrong, someone has asked this or something like it before, and IIR a BIG flag is BIG money,really quite big money.

 

I would go for a double kabuki though.

[BTSmith96]

I've seen the thread at http://www.blue-room.org.uk/index.php?showtopic=40341 – are there any other UK based companies which hire solenoids?

 

Also, I've seen two versions online which have different set ups: one has a solenoid along every eyelet, but the other has one, and a spring which pulls a wire, and in turn nails out of the eyelets. Which do you think is better (I've got a feeling it'll be the more expensive!)

 

Also, is the better way to suspend it with a small drape all the way along, hooked under it, or simply with safety cables?

 

Thanks – I'm trying to come up with a detailed plan of how to do it before suggesting it, as hopefully this will give us more chance of doing it.

 

Ben

[david.elsbury]

Hi Ben

I have to confess, I saw your thread title, and where it was placed, and thought "here we go...."

But on reading your posts, I'd like to congratulate you for a very well thought out, well written topic, and replies the same.

It makes a pleasant change to see from the usual text speak, and grandiose ideas that sometimes get thrown around in here, and you're also considering all the important things (such as health and safety, budget, and 'what happens after the effect is over')

 

Without looking at your profile, and just looking at the way you write, no one would know your age...

 

Keep up the good work :)

David

[mark_s]

My vote would be for a double kabuki drop, assuming that you don't need the cloth to come in slowly (contrary to the belief of some directors, gravity is not DMXable). A roller cloth would also be a good option and will give you a controlled 'flying in' look, but as Paul says the logistics could be a pain in the rear end. There was a diagram on Flints' website somewhere showing you how it works, but it is/was buried somewhere random and I just can't find it. A wipe would be the least preferable option for me - but that's because I don't like the effect rather than for any technical reason.

 

It makes a pleasant change to see from the usual text speak, and grandiose ideas that sometimes get thrown around in here, and you're also considering all the important things (such as health and safety, budget, and 'what happens after the effect is over')

 

Without looking at your profile, and just looking at the way you write, no one would know your age...

 

Keep up the good work :)

 

Seconded - I wasn't going to post at all on this thread, but after David posted this I had to just so I could add my support for a well considered, thoughtful thread.

[Jivemaster]

How will you source the flag?

 

The dimensions you give are huge for a flag so it may have to be custom made at silly big money. A real flag that size would be strong and heavy, it would touch down with a thud on both first and second drop.

 

Maybe you could find a reasonably local dingy sail maker who would make it for you in ripstop nylon which would be robust enough and light enough.

[Bobbsy]

Or, for a bit of lateral thinking, have you considered dressing the flag into a hidden trough at the back of the stage and lifting it UP instead of dropping it in? It's an effect I've seen used before on flyless stages and it can look very good (and more controlled than a drop).

[GridGirl]

I've seen something very similar on a production of Miss Saigon - six red banners dropped and then were pulled down by the cast and taken offstage. It was a solenoid box for the initial drop (to reveal the banners) and then all we did was screw three big bulldog clips to the inside of the box (the top was open) and clipped the top of the banners up. The fabric was light enough that it held perfectly well for the first drop, but give it a good tug and it would release easily. We did have the advantage of being able to fly the boxes in to re-load, but it wouldn't be that hard to do off a ladder. Simple, effective, and relatively cheap!

 

Or, alternatively, what about a giant Roman blind? I've done that with several curtains in non-flying theatres - sew weights into the bottom of the flag, then curtain rings up the back of it, and run string from the weights up through the rings, through pulleys, turn it into a single-string operation (tie all the individual strings to a big curtain ring, then one string off the other side) and off to where someone can operate it. That way you can lower it at a slower speed and pull it back up to get rid of it.

[ramdram]

Or Austrian blind? Loads of eyes sewn on the reverse side, threaded with nylon cords. Some lightweight chain/pipe in the hem so as to tension the fabric to get rid of any creases.

 

Should be easy enough to haul back above the eyeline. You see this arrangement in some theatres so it's not exactly a new idea, just a slight deviation from normal practice.

 

Or, the rolled up fabric which has visible cords. Think of those "trendy" (years ago) split cane/rice paper type roller blinds.

[BTSmith96]

I hadn't thought about the issue with thuds. The first drop wouldn't be too much of an issue (the aim is that the music finishes as it hits the floor, so the thud should just serve as an extra percussive effect). However, the second drop will probably be during a blackout, depending on the lighting design, for the bows – so, hopefully the audience will already be clapping! And I expect the audience would forgive a loud band, in light of how impressive the effect was (this is all hypothetical, of course!)

 

Still, a loud thud isn't exactly what you want, and would rather ruin the finale. I'm looking into ripstop nylon as a light but durable solution. Is it possible to paint of this? – usually, the art dept. paint several cycs as scenery (for example, this year for Kiss Me, Kate, there is the back of the theatre, an Italian village and the 'Shrew curtain' which acts as a tab). I'm sure they wouldn't mind painting a giant Union Jack, should it be possible. Also, if so, can you paint it with ordinary paint, or must it be a certain type?

 

Thanks for your help – I've contacted our technical supervisor about the possibility of hiring a kabuki system.

 

Also, having a flag lifted up would be a much more glamorous solution than my previous back-up plan, which was to simply throw it over the balcony at the back of the stage!

 

Ben

[Jivemaster]

Packed as tightly as needed in a drop box it's likely that paint will flake off the fabric, so a dye would be better.

 

The huge issue is really the flag. A flag 9m x6m may cost several thousand pounds if purchased from a flag supplier -then you have to justify it in the budget -it likely will not have further use.

 

If you can get the materials made up into a flag base in house then it maybe a goer. You could make the base and dye sections of it red and blue or make the base and sew the correct shapes on in red and blue. Ripstop nylon may work, so may (poly)cotton sheeting by the roll.

 

Alternatively contact one of the Hot Air Balloon companies near Bristol (Thunder and Cameron I think) for their advice they will have fire retardant material, and they will be very familiar with sewing their fabrics -they may even have a flag but don't rely on it!