Show me your Grid

[david.elsbury]

 

That is bull. Sorry, but it is. You don't not post something because somebody might take it and do it badly. People could just buy a book and do it badly from that.

You are, of course entitled to your opinion, but don't forget that your name is alongside every post you make, and in the event of something going horribly wrong as a result of something you've posted, I can see the prosecution going after you because you suggested advice on an internet forum.

 

Granted, there has to be an element of responsibility that lies with the person that decides to actually implement said advice, but I still think you're [person giving advice and techniques] potentially implicating yourself.

 

David

 

E2A: WRT ramps and gangways such as what you linked to, surely you wouldn't rig a point off one of those - yet isn't that what you suggested a potential use for them could be, or did I misunderstand that?

[brainwave-generator]

BG the problem is that your posts can be misleading to the inexperienced nippers who have no idea on how to read the post, and read them they do.

 

The OP appears to have access to sound advice and say he will "ask a man who does/can/will", which is sensible in that he has passed "ownership" of the project to someone else...who can make these things happen, or not of course.

 

What you are perhaps forgetting is that not everyone who reads BR has the background to understand "your point". For example, it could be that in some places the steel work in itself is rated for many tons, yet the masonry on which it rests or into which it is integrated may not.

 

 

I see what you're saying but I still think it's naive to think we shouldn't post because a nipper might see it and try it themselves. I don't know how many 15 year old college students have access to a lorry load of RSJs and their own theatre roof but I doubt it's many.

 

It is probably more dangerous to post how to remove the lamp in a Mac700, in case some 'nipper' doesn't realise he has to let it cool and burns himself with the lamp; because this is kit they might actually be in contact with.

 

I maintain that there is nothing wrong with posting ideas on the best materials for building a grid. The OP has a standing obligation to have it done professionally under the HSWA, and whether or not he read it on a forum is irrelevant.

 

That is bull. Sorry, but it is. You don't not post something because somebody might take it and do it badly. People could just buy a book and do it badly from that.

You are, of course entitled to your opinion, but don't forget that your name is alongside every post you make, and in the event of something going horribly wrong as a result of something you've posted, I can see the prosecution going after you because you suggested advice on an internet forum.

 

Granted, there has to be an element of responsibility that lies with the person that decides to actually implement said advice, but I still think you're [person giving advice and techniques] potentially implicating yourself.

 

I don't. Any court would see that this is pretty much a 'chat room' and not a formal consultation. There is not enough detail in my post to claim that I had designed his roof system and in the event that it fell down, he'd struggle to prove that I had any liability. The court would see that under the HSWA he failed to ensure a safe work place, by building something which he wasn't competent to build, and not having it professionally certified. Any suggestion the court are going to chase it back through an internet forum and prosecute people who put ideas up in essentially a 'chatty' environment is pretty unrealistic.

 

E2A: WRT ramps and gangways such as what you linked to, surely you wouldn't rig a point off one of those - yet isn't that what you suggested a potential use for them could be, or did I misunderstand that?

 

Yes you misunderstood that. I suggested that you could rig a point from catwalk truss or from an RSJ, providing that it was rated for the point load, and also that the supporting structure was rated for the load. I just said by matter of conversation that the bridges Paul referred to as being like truck ramps, were in fact often fabricated by truck ramp companies.

[ramdram]

No, no, no BG, it is the way the replies are couched is the issue here.

 

It was fairly obvious from this first post that the OP was after information about constructing "works to" at height.

 

IF the info required was associated with anything potentially dangerous, flying, hanging, cobbling up power distribution then the only answer is to suggest that the "OP" consult a professional. This response is predicated on the very fact the question was being asked.

 

This is not a dig as such, just a heads up that it is not beyond the realms of reality that someone might very well do as you posted.

 

I can say I HAVE seen inexperienced, gung ho, nippers attempt to do quite stupendously stupid things...both at height and with mains distribution. When challenged the reply is, "Well they do it like that at the such and such."

 

Now, when you reply to another poster that they "misunderstood" your point, then is it not possible the very much less experienced OP could misunderstand your point as well?

[paulears]

It's a long time ago, and the damn search facility on the new forum software makes finding old stuff really difficult, but a long time ago people were discussing widow makers, 16A one's I think, and somebody came up with an electrically sensible way to provide some extra power capacity, while a few others pointed out that with one connector unplugged, it would be a widow maker. Loads of discussion about how daft it was and then it went quiet. Two months later, somebody pointed out that a Google search brought back the post in response to a query term. If the person following the link did not read a page back or forward, then the information gained would be really dangerous in certain circumstances. In another old post, somebody pointed out how Euro two pin connectors could be persuaded to fit 4 gang 13A sockets if you followed the instructions. This is why it became Blue Room standard practice to NOT permit some processes to be detailed as somehow acceptable - even though many of us do actually do these things. We decided back then never, ever to promote these kinds of things, because even though you think people would not be daft enough to do them, people really do - or even use them as the basis of even worse practices, born out of another slightly more acceptable one.

 

Nobody likes having to post NO NO NO - but it is the responsible thing to do on a forum with open membership and unrestricted viewing. Even if you personally carry out bad practice in a controlled way quite safely, it is not acceptable to provide that kind of advice here. People have proven time and time again that what is written here is read and digested by people who really don't have the experience and skill to determine if it is safe for them. I knew an electrician who flicked potentially live terminals or cables to see if they were on! He had always done it, and never had problems. Can you imagine somebody detailing this in a post on here. Plenty of members would read it, use common sense to decide that a fleeting contact would be possibly painful but acceptable and it would continue. Totally stupid to those who know, but possibly interesting to those who have never had a serious proper shock!

 

Text based forums have real problems with proper understanding, irony and comedy rarely get picked up on properly - hence why people have to use emoticons to make sure people understand it's meant to be funny, or tongue-in-cheek!

 

We are trying to be responsible - it may be restrictive, but frankly - we don't care!

[kerry davies]

BG/David is a relatively new member and may not realise that the success of Blue Room as a source of information brings as many difficulties as benefits. It can and often is used as a source by very young, very inexperienced and occasionally very irresponsible people. The words do matter! I am guilty of things like the "Free School" reference but try to keep information and opinion as separate as possible.

 

In this case the OP has taken my advice about chain of command and architects involvement seriously and I appreciate that. I haven't a clue as to what he wishes to achieve, like Brian and David Elsbury, so cannot comment on technical stuff.

 

The main concern from my PoV is unauthorised adaptions to a newish build, the possible removal thereby of architects and engineers liabilities from the building as an entirety and the insurance ramifications thereof. I cannot give the OP the relevant knowledge so merely point him to where it may be found.

 

As for Academies, removing them from LEA control/guidance leaves teachers in charge. Spot the deliberate mistake?

[Eeen]

Dear All,

 

I was not looking to start a H&S discussion or cause any sort of rift issues.

 

I was however looking for examples of peoples grids so I can show and adapt and design alongside the architect and structural engineer one that would work for me. Always bearing in mind I am in a school, so the H&S is 1st on my mind all the time.

 

I have worked in a few theatres with wooden grids hence my initial suggestion. Maybe I was not clear with my initial post, Once I could see what others do, I can work a design that would work with my theatre.

 

I understand BR's position on not advertising poor working practices and the fact that it can be viewed by anyone anytime with or without experience, as Im sure you all do. however there are many people with many different experiences good and bad, and once shared others can/will comment in both a positive and negative manor. That’s the beauty of open forums.

 

I thank you all for information and useful guidance, and I am keen to know how peoples grids look/work.

 

*the measurements of 1m and 1.5m heights are guesstimations - I probably should of put that.. I will measure up closer to the design stages.

 

and what’s "OP" stand for ???

 

Thanks once again - this is quite a read now !

 

 

[J Pearce]

OP= original poster

[Seano]

BG the problem is that your posts can be misleading to the inexperienced nippers who have no idea on how to read the post, and read them they do.

 

The other problem with a forum like this is that its difficult for the reader of a post to know whether or not the poster is also an "inexperienced nipper".

Its not unknown (or even particularly unusual) for someone to pop up here with a well-padded CV, full of borrowed anecdotes from second-hand experience and confidently offering advice that mixes genuinely solid sensible stuff with arse gravy of the worst kind.

 

Sometimes a forum is like a swimming pool in that most of the noise is coming from the shallow end, so let the reader beware.

[mark_s]

This is very off-topic, and probably deserves it's own thread, but I can't see how the Blue Room will continue to have any relevance or usefulness as a professional forum if this is the stance adopted. Given that even the textbook post on rigging, staging, or power could be incredibly dangerous if misinterpreted by someone with little experience (which is easily done if you don't really have the first clue, as many 'little nippers' don't), where do you draw the line? What is left to be discussed? Maybe we should just get rid of the 'dangerous' forums altogether, given the seriously limited range of topics that can actually be discussed.. While some topics are patently dangerous (widowmakers, hanging truss from bits of string, etc) and should be verboten, I really can't see any problem with other topics such as this, where practical advice has been given to an OP who clearly has a modicum of common sense and who is already involving the correct people to advise on doing the work safely. He asked to see some real life examples, and not only has not one person answered his original query, the vast majority of posters have chipped in with 'don't! not safe!' even when it became clear from an early point in the thread that he wasn't about to just go and sling some timber up in the roof.

 

I haven't had any issue following what BG has posted, nor seeing that it was some practical tips and suggestions rather than a 'how to kill a cast in three steps', and I can't see why anyone else should either. I've found it's often really helpful to get high-level suggestions on topics like this; maybe catwalk truss is the perfect solution, but no one involved knew that it existed for example? If the worries are that a 15 year old 'Head of Rigging' is going to read it and give it a go...well, really? As BG says, how many 15 year olds do you know with access to a truckload of metalwork and a theatre roof, who have the resources to actually do something like that? Stupid people will also do stupid things regardless - maybe the teen in this example won't cause the roof to come crashing down on everyone based on BG's advice, but maybe they'll come up with a cunning male-male 15A adaptor of their own thinking for when they've ran that cable backwards and can't be bothered to redo it, and electrocute someone instead.

 

I regularly post on another forum - a climbing forum - where the consequences of dangerous advice are equally dire - and there is absolutely no problem. People ask for advice on all manner of life-endangering things, they get given advice by people of every experience from weekend warrior to professional climber, they occasionally get given shoddy advice which then gets quickly shot down, and only rarely do they get told 'you really need an instructor or an experienced climber to help you'. People aren't prevented from posting accurate and safe advice on the grounds that someone with 0 experience might try it and kill themselves - the onus is firmly on the person receiving the advice to use their own judgement and common sense. The only difference between that forum and this forum is that climbing is a personal hobby rather than an industry. I fail to see why that alters the concept of personal responsibility. I honestly think that if the Blue Room continues down this path, that it will cease to be a useful resource for professionals.

[gyro_gearloose]

I was however looking for examples of peoples grids so I can show and adapt and design alongside the architect and structural engineer one that would work for me.

You'd be better off talking to someone who does this kind of design work for a living rather than trying to cobble together a design between yourselves. Neither you, your architect, or your structural engineer appear to have much experience of designing such a system (I'm basing this assumption on the fact that your first port of call was to discuss your ideas on an internet forum rather than talking to your architect or engineer first to find out if your ideas are even feasible). You may end up missing some important aspect which could affect the safety/usability of your grid, or you could end up massively over-speccing the design so that it becomes prohibitively expensive.

 

it became clear from an early point in the thread that he wasn't about to just go and sling some timber up in the roof.

Really? So you missed this bit in the first post : "Im thinking of using 3x1 Timber with about a 2" gap between." And this was before he'd said that he was going to talk to his architect and structural engineer...

 

The only difference between that forum and this forum is that climbing is a personal hobby rather than an industry.

And therein lies the biggest difference between climbing and the theatre industry. If, when you are half way up a rock face, something goes seriously wrong the absolute worst case is that you kill yourself. If something goes wrong in the theatre the absolute worst case is that you kill someone else, or more than one person.

[peza2010]

The other option is locking up the forum all together meaning you have to sign in - and to sign in, it means you need to, or already have signed up - within which could be a box to be ticked to say that the forum, or any of its posts take any responsibility for any damaged caused etc etc. However this also minmises the gain of new members that stumble upon the forum...

 

 

If it were up to me, id let darwin take over.

 

E2A as sort of previously mentioned - is a forum not a place to discuss ALL ideas - both good and bad? - we should'nt have to strenuously think about a post because some numpty might log onto lickasocket.com and think its a good idea. A forum is for learning - and for some realising the fact what you suggested is stupid by being shot down by the other members. It makes posting laborious - for example troubleshooting a moving head, any one posting is scared that they havent added in another warning measures about power under the hood - yet if you need to be reminded of this, should you be poking around inside a moving head?

[mark_s]

The only difference between that forum and this forum is that climbing is a personal hobby rather than an industry.

And therein lies the biggest difference between climbing and the theatre industry. If, when you are half way up a rock face, something goes seriously wrong the absolute worst case is that you kill yourself. If something goes wrong in the theatre the absolute worst case is that you kill someone else, or more than one person.

 

Well, yourself, your belayer/second, the group on the pitch below, the group below you at the bottom of the crag who you knock a microwave-size block onto, etc. Don't get me wrong, I do understand the difference between personal hobby and industry with accountability, but to simplify it to 'with climbing you can only kill yourself' is a bit misleading. The result of bad advice for both though may well be the death of multiple people who have nothing to do with you or your error.

 

I do also understand the worries of giving advice on dangerous subjects over the Internet on a public forum, but in an industry where much of what we do is hazardous, how can a professional forum (the Blue Room does still bill itself as that, doesn't it?) avoid discussing dangerous subjects? At some point it will cease to be a professional forum, and will become a resource where experienced people answer newbie's questions on DMX and microphones, because any serious discussion will have been outlawed by the danger police.

[ianl]

I cant show you any photos, but I,ve worked in many venues with various roof access

 

Wooden catwalk on rsj

Metal catwalk on rsj

Metal catwalk slung under space frame

Truss style catwalk

Rsj grid

Wire mesh grid

 

Dont think I,ve ever been on a wooden grid

 

The main feature of most of these roofs is that you cant hang much if anything off the access platform, only off the nearby rsj, truss, space frame, etc

 

The other important things to note is there is a minimum height you can have between a floor an a cieling ( like when you try to fit a mezanine floor in a warehouse and its not two minimum distance high) I,m sure a grid would fall foul of this, maybe a couple of catwalks wouldnt, you would need to check

 

Also the safe access to and from the grid /catwalk is almost more iimportant than the construction of the grid, as well as things like number of fire exits ( dependant on size of grid and max distance to exit) suitable lighting and emergency lighting,extra Smoke detectors , and the abilaty to get an unconcious person from the grid

 

Lots more for your architect, engineer, safety person, builder to think about rather than just what to make it of

[brainwave-generator]

Basically my stance on all this is as follows:

 

An open forum, by nature, can be both written and read by anybody. And for that reason, there is no point in treating it as if it's a professional consultation where only completely censored and content-less posts are allowed.

If we need to do the "Ask a professional" thing, it should be the ONLY post on here. The forum should have one topic called "The be all and end all" and it would just say "we can't post solutions in case you die so here's one topic to say don't bother asking".

 

Let's get one thing straight. If anyone does something written on BR, does it wrong, and kills somebody; it will not end up with the poster getting jailed. There is nothing wrong with asking the question on here, just as a point of getting a few starters to help you come up with ideas. Just because somebody says "use RSJs" I do not see why some posters feel the need to translate this into "tie some ill-fitting RSJs on with string and just start hanging stuff on it". "Use RSJs" just puts an option on the table. "Use catwalk truss" is another. It is still up to the poster to ensure that the RSJs or Catwalk Truss is installed properly, it's just putting ideas to them.

 

There's loads of forums on car mods etc. People say "fit XYZ brakes and the ABC supercharger". They don't have posters saying "NO! Don't post answers! He might fit it wrong and have a brake failure and crash into 3 cars and kill 10 people".They take the faith that the person in question is either suitably qualified to fit the parts themselves, or will seek out professional help. It's the same here, just because we post "you could do this", that does not at all mean somebody will go and do it. It really is like saying "don't sell Haynes manuals in case some underqualified idiot tries to build his own Range Rover".

 

I am not trying to start a revolution, I'm just saying "chill out". There are plenty of dangerous things in publicly accessible places that idiots can kill themselves with, there is no danger in us adding more.

[kerry davies]

Delicate stuff on a forum where most members are in or are training for paid employment. The car forums are for DIYers to get advice on a hobby, BR is a work based forum and different law applies. HASAWA does not impinge on DIYers, it does on most BR members.

 

Had the OP stated that he was seeking examples of others grids to show his architects and engineers this thread would be short indeed so the "quality" of questioning is vital. The answers are only as good or as relevant as the questions posed allow.

I might as well put my usual whine about profiles in here as well.

 

Eeen, do take Ianl's post about access seriously, not only how you get out in emergency but how you prevent punters from getting up there, which is a problem in more than one venue.