Show me your Grid

[brainwave-generator]

Delicate stuff on a forum where most members are in or are training for paid employment. The car forums are for DIYers to get advice on a hobby, BR is a work based forum and different law applies. HASAWA does not impinge on DIYers, it does on most BR members.

 

And frankly anybody working in a professional role where HASAWA applies, who has access to a theatre roof and a pile of RSJs, should know better than building a grid based on a discussion they saw on Blue Room.

 

If anything, I'd be more worried about a load of casual DIY mechanics tinkering with their brakes than I would be about a group of paid professionals tinkering with their theatres.

[Gareth A]

Sorry but I totally have to totally agree with B-G here. If anyone that has that sort of access really was stupid enough to do it based on some comments on a internet forum that is populated by both professional members and kids, then they need to get their heads checked.

 

To be fair, anyone who really has access to a grid full stop should know better.!

 

If any of the Moderators or Admin are really that worried about people following the advice of others, then perhaps I can suggest that a warning as a pop-up appears every time the home-page is opened. Its annoying I admit, but then anyone who visits the page, will see this. Guests, registered members, Police etc etc etc.

 

I found this on a public forum terms and conditions page - and suggest it could be used maybe with a little modification. **You are responsible for any actions you may take based on advice or information you receive online. Use your own good judgment when evaluating information provided through the The Blue Room. Remember that the information provided could be from people of any age and experience level. The decision to conduct transactions with anyone is your own, and you should do your own research prior to making any decisions.**

 

 

A while ago, a member of this forum posted that a user should just poke bare cables into the socket. . . . or something very similar. Does that mean that poster could get sued because a 5 year old who came by the forum tried it. To be honest, they probably would have tried it regardless. ! Admittingly that thread got deleted, but I am sure that it was up long enough for someone to have read it.

 

 

Just my two bob worth.

[ramdram]

BR members on the whole are being responsible or at least trying to be. Those of us who post "consult a professional" have made their own subjective decision about the poster.

 

I suspect there are a lot of folk who want to help and bash on in without adequate thought on the possible consequences. Not a lot of use to then come up with the caveats several posts later though, is it.

 

Unfortunately, because this is an open forum...and is read (hyperbole warning) by 15 year "Grand High Master Directors of the School Theatre and Administrator De Luxe of the Mirror Ball", who manage the school Drama Dept (despite all the well meaning pesky interference from the staff and, by this same 15 year old's own admission, are a bunch of know nothing old twits...he told you so himself and who can possibly argue with facts like that...and condescends to find time to give the Head some friendly, avuncular advice on all matters theatrical...is the very reason why we say Stop!

 

To believe this is a forum strictly for professionals is perhaps a wrong perception. There must be some folk on BR who may not ever have worked with amdrams, for example, and cannot have had any direct experience of truly amateur ideas of setting up a production ref the H&S dept. To repeat, I have seen some incredibly stupid stuff with both flying and power.

 

Therefore to publish a "blueprint" of how to do something potentially dangerous is simply adding fuel to the fire. No amount of warnings or caveats will have any impact whatsoever on the "designs" or ambitions of these tyros.

 

It would be wise to remember there is NO regulation as such in amdram. Certainly there are plenty of rules and regs, laws even, which apply to all things, but "the show MUST go on" is the driving factor, first, second and third. Yes, "you" may know of some amdrams who are better run than some professional outfits, but there are some who are not, by any stretch of the imagination.

 

Want to run a full on strobe for over a minute...as long as there are warning notices what's the problem...the audience were told were they not?

 

Want to fix some lantern perches to the walls, simply use some 2" screws with rawlplugs, job done.

 

Want to use some staging for the raised seating...well as long as we tell the punters not to push their chairs too far back they won't fall off will they...I mean the audience have got to use some common sense...you can't expect us to mollycoddle them all the time.

 

Want to turn off the fire exit signs for a "proper" BO, just find the little key thing, it's around here somewhere.

 

Build the set across or store the props in the fire exit...no problem, we've never had a fire here before.

 

Want the cast to come in with lit candles...ah, well, you would need to do an RA and sort out some sandbuckets and extinguishers and have some fire marshals (who know how to use a firebottle) backstage. Oh, that seems like a lot of bother...I'll just tell the cast to be more careful...

 

Here's a set of ideas to build a grid...oooh, now there's an idea, we could fly in the scenery and, and, and...well do anything we like really...and nobody will mind if we put it up out of the way and we can probably borrow a ladder to get up there. Now, where did we put all those old flats...bound to be some useful timber in that lot.

 

This is another side to the theatre some folk don't see and probably never will see...and why some of us are more likely to say "talk to a professional first".

[brainwave-generator]

Therefore to publish a "blueprint" of how to do something potentially dangerous is simply adding fuel to the fire. No amount of warnings or caveats will have any impact whatsoever on the "designs" or ambitions of these tyros.

 

Yes I wholeheartedly agree that publishing a blueprint on how to do something would be the wrong thing to do; that in my mind would be where the line was crossed from discussing possible ways of achieving a task into providing a consultation service over the internet. Providing a detailed consultation is something that is to be left to the professionals and done in private.

 

But the concept that "you shouldn't write things because somebody might read it, do it wrong, and hurt themselves" is a ridiculous concept. An idiot technician could walk into B&Q right now, buy a table saw, put it together wrong, use it wrong, and cut their fingers off. Who was in the wrong? Makita for making the saw, and writing the instructions? B&Q for selling it? Or is it just the fault of the person who didn't use it right.

 

If they followed the instructions to the word and it still went wrong and cut their fingers off, then they might have a case. And that is the same here. If I had provided a detailed, 30 page installation guide for how to put a grid into his venue, and it went wrong, then yes, I think he'd probably have a case against me. But I didn't. I chucked a few ideas on the table, namely using RSJs, using catwalk trusses. That is not a detailed consultation giving instruction on how to build a grid, that is swapping ideas about what materials might be best. Public discussion forums are not just there to provide a textbook answer to every problem, they are there to provide a resource for healthy discussion about various issues we face. As long as those discussions remain as ideas and light debate, there is nothing to suggest that 15 year old Jimmy, the school's 'Head of Theatre' is going to go and buy 20 RSJs and try and put them in his school roof. Or at least, there's nothing to suggest he's any more likely to do it than he was already.

 

The fact is that most things done in practical trades, by all means including theatre and entertainment, carry some sort of inherent danger. We can't just go on pretending they don't exist, and stating 'consult a professional' to every dilemma. Should somebody hire in a top touring LD for the day for cutting gels so they don't lose a finger? Or is it just a case of exercise common sense and basic safety precautions?

 

We can't stop accidents from happening by not talking about them on the internet. We can't pretend that dangerous things don't exist. There is nothing wrong with bouncing light ideas around the room for the purpose of good discussion. Assumptions that talking about remotely dangerous things will result in 15 year old school-theatre-technicians killing 50 people with raining RSJs is silly and will kill good discussion. But please stop using "get somebody else to do it" as the one and only answer.

 

If he was asking us to design him a grid, I'd say "get somebody else to do it". But he wasn't. He was just asking for some pictures and some pointers, which is completely different.

[Ynot]

I'll echo much of what Ramdram has posted and agree that as someone with a foot firmly in the amateur scene for over 30 years there ARE some rank amateurs out there and quite a lot with VERY professional attitudes. And with my other foot having been in the pro world (on a relatively small scale) for almost 10 years I can equally agree that there are professionals out there who I wouldn't pay in brass washers due to the unsafe practices I've seen,.

 

But as for an innocent reader here taking on a task beyond their years or experience after reading a BR topic, that is DEFINITELY something we should take care regarding.

 

There ARE plenty of schoolkids from 14 upwards who HAVE access, whether approved by the faculty or no, to all sorts of theatre space and kit. And yes they are NOT supported in a great many situations by teachers/staff who know a great deal more than they. And kids being kids, they WILL try to push their own envelope whilst thinking that they can take away something they saw on t'internet as gospel, and try it for themselves. (Don't forget, they don't need to contribute to the topic - just read it...)

 

I would agree that it's highly unlikely (though perhaps not impossible) for someone to be prosecuted for giving unsafe advice on a forum (however, look at the recent prosecutions for something as simple as defamation or race hatred on FB and Twitter...). But that does NOT mean that those of us here that HAVE the necessary experience and training in certain areas don't have the RESPONSIBILITY to correct anything that is clearly either inherently unsafe or that appears to be unsafe should it be attempted by one without the necessary background...

 

 

[paulears]

Personally what really pees me off is seeing these stupid dangerous posts quoted on other forums, as an example of our 'quality'. We even see this occasionally on here when daft comments on other forums get pasted here.

 

As far as the mods are concerned - bad advice, especially potentially dangerous advice, perhaps even meant as tongue-in-cheek WILL get zapped, because although some members may feel that legally speaking we are covered, morally we are guilty.

 

Speaking for me personally. I know just how worrying I find it when somebody working with me, for me, or even somebody I'm teaching gets hurt on my watch. So when I read stupid advice here that I KNOW could be really dodgy if somebody misunderstood the warnings, I want to see it gone.

 

Let's consider the old favourite DANGER WILL ROBINSON subject. Removing the earth on a 13A plug to cure a hum. We all know this is bad practice. We all know that in the past there are documented cases of electrocution where this has happened. People are stupid. However, sometimes I have to wonder if our determination of stupidity is based on what WE know, not what THEY know. remember the idiot who tried to sue Fender a few years ago when they cut off the jack plug and plugged the guitar into a 110V US receptacle? Stupid to us, but obviously not so stupid to the person who did it.

 

We have a moral duty to at least attempt to stop people promoting bad practice as safe under certain circumstances. I for one, know I would not react very well if somebody, after reading Blue Room 'advice' got hurt. Maybe we're legally safe, but in my humble opinion, we would have contributed to the injury.

 

The example of somebody poking wires into holes is EXACTLY why we should control advice and suggestions our members hand out.

 

I am not certain, but I think that there could be a case where the publisher of dangerous advice would indeed be liable to some degree. I'd like to think most people on the forum are responsible people, and if people are not - then they have no right to expect the forum to promote their irresponsibility.

 

The dodgy technicians group is a great example of the idiotic things people do. I for one would be very embarrassed to find any of our advice listed there!

[brainwave-generator]

I would agree that it's highly unlikely (though perhaps not impossible) for someone to be prosecuted for giving unsafe advice on a forum (however, look at the recent prosecutions for something as simple as defamation or race hatred on FB and Twitter...). But that does NOT mean that those of us here that HAVE the necessary experience and training in certain areas don't have the RESPONSIBILITY to correct anything that is clearly either inherently unsafe or that appears to be unsafe should it be attempted by one without the necessary background...

 

 

 

Let's consider the old favourite DANGER WILL ROBINSON subject. Removing the earth on a 13A plug to cure a hum. We all know this is bad practice. We all know that in the past there are documented cases of electrocution where this has happened. People are stupid. However, sometimes I have to wonder if our determination of stupidity is based on what WE know, not what THEY know. remember the idiot who tried to sue Fender a few years ago when they cut off the jack plug and plugged the guitar into a 110V US receptacle? Stupid to us, but obviously not so stupid to the person who did it.

 

 

OK I think this is where we're not making a distinction.

 

"Cut off the plug and stick the wires in the socket" or "remove the earth" or whatever. That is describing a process which is dangerous and could hurt somebody.

 

"Use RSJs instead of timber" or "Use catwalk truss". That is not describing a process. That is discussing use of different materials. If it said "take an RSJ, lift it up onto your existing RSJs, secure it down with ABC, and this is safe to walk on" - that would be bad. But simply saying "use RSJs" is not. That does not leave things in a state of play where somebody could go and try it themselves, it simply leaves it in a state of play where somebody has got a few ideas to go on, for how to make his grid.

[Gareth A]

Thats the difference though Paul - your teaching them. I would be upset if one of my pupils (not that I teach) got hurt.

 

Likewise, if a member of the company I work for got hurt, id be upset too. In fact, a guy I worked with fell over on stage during a performance and broke his elbow. I was mortified. Ok everything was risk assessed to death, and a single shot of water made him slip up. That was the end of his tour. I was shocked.

 

 

 

Point is though, at what point should u stop putting anything. Even talking about changing a resistor on a Strand 520 could be dangerous if read by the wrong person with no formal training. Could blow an entire desk up as well as themselves. ! Especially when you start talking about putting voltage across pins, and the desk cover etc etc.

 

 

My point is - almost everything that is written on any public forum could potentially be dangerous if read by the wrong person even if well meant. !

 

Dodgy technicians is usually populated by pictures of a forklift on a forklift, or a 4 way socket in a swimming pool.

 

 

Using the same basis if someone saw that picture out of context, they could assume that its safe to do that. ! Should dodgy technicians no put anything dodgy on it?!

 

 

Don't get me wrong, Im not saying that we should offer bad advice, but like wise I think sometimes people get far too jumpy, when a basic idea is flung around.

 

However ta ram dram for telling me how to put up some lanterns to my perch. Want to fix some lantern perches to the walls, simply use some 2" screws with rawlplugs, job done. Ill remember that one tomorrow.

 

Point is - its jest. But I've just read that. Should that comment be ridiculed or removed no.

 

But what if someone read it who isn't a professional and doesn't know better. . .

 

If my mum read how to change the resistor on a LED par can, I think she would probably blow herself up, but sometimes you can find that information on here. Quite detailed and factual. Does that make that person liable.!?

 

The list goes on.

 

 

But I will say, this forum always has, will and continue to be a good place for knowledge, and the odd tongue in cheek thread. !

[matt_beal]

Could I suggest that the "Warnings" that can be found on the "Electrical & Power" and "Safety" forums, be rolled out across all of the "potentially dangerous" forums....?!

 

I have to admit, I feel a bit uneasy that "members" are the ones policing these safety issues. I would have thought this kind of post should be strictly kept to Mod Land.

 

Would it not be more appropriate, professional and safe to report these potentially dangerous topics? So that official warnings can be PM'd and posted to the thread from the Mods, advising the OP and other readers of the potentially dangerous effects of what is being asked for. This would significantly cut the signal to noise ratio, and perhaps curtail the recently mentioned perception of bullying.

 

We all have a moral duty to be careful in our postings, and that is why many people will post a caveat with any posts that they are concerned may be misunderstood. I don't think it really needs to go further than that though, you can only warn people so many times. Anyone could get a book about rigging/electrics/pyro and get the same advice you might get here. If readers ignore the warnings, it is then legally and ethically their own responsibility if they get it wrong.

 

My medical textbooks are prime examples, they all have extremely dangerous information in them, in the wrong hands. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be written, published or accessible to all. They have a note in the front warning that the information could be wrong or out of date and that "it is the responsibility of the practitioner to rely on their own experience and knowledge."

 

My 2p... :)

[paulears]

It would be great if people pressed the report button when they see things potentially worrying - the mods never object to reports, and every one is scrutinised and if appropriate we act straight away. Sometimes a solitary mod isn't quite sure - so then we hide the post until somebody else comes along and then we get a balance. Sometimes posts get reinstated, sometimes they get deleted - as the majority of mods think best. None of us object if our initial decision gets overturned - consensus is all we need.

 

Sometimes people decide to deal with the problem themselves. Sometimes they do a fine job and it goes quiet. Other times, it turns into a train wreck - and the protagonists melt away and leave the mods to clear up? Sometimes we do sympathise, and other times we really wonder how on earth things got that bad.

 

The report button would be a much better system for the mods, but we realise it's also not instant, and I expect that is why sometimes people just can't wait, and feel it vital to reply.

[Ynot]

It would be great if people pressed the report button when they see things potentially worrying - the mods never object to reports, and every one is scrutinised

Something I said quite a ways back was that in my opinion more people would use the report option IF they got a little feedback from the mods. I know, I know, that's just something else for the overstretched mods to do BUT it doesn't have to be a novel - just an acknowledgement that the report has been received and under consideration, and MAYBE on occasion a quick word to say 'thanks' and that the topic is being sorted, or "Sorry, but we don't feel it's off track just yet".

 

It would be a courtesy, and I believe would encourage members to report more often.

[brainwave-generator]

Should I report the fact that we're going off topic talking about reporting?

 

http://www.blue-room.org.uk/public/style_emoticons/default/cool.gif

[Gareth A]

Can I suggest this thread is now split? Let the grid continue, and open a new thread about reporting?

 

But I am curios what is considered as dangerous to a Newbie or someone of non theatre intellect.

 

Personally, I would find it dangerous posting on a website about how to build a house - step by step. If we se the same thinking process that we are using here, it should be removed. http://www.wikihow.com/Build-a-House

 

On this forum alone, as I mentioned above, I personally find a lot of the information thats given dangerous if used by non trained people. Changing resistors, putting voyage through DMX pins and the desk, stripping apart LED par cans, Hanging people, Whipping people.

 

Technically all dangerous information in the wrong hands, but something anyone could actually do .

 

Could the OP really just go and buy a catwalk truss, or throw a dozen RSJ's up in the roof. . . .no.

 

Like I said above. Put a popup on the forum that happens every time the home page is opened, OR - perhaps some wise wizard can write a script, that if its not someone who logged in say within 30 seconds, then it pops up. Leaves the members alone then.

 

But I do say that the BR's own T&C says it all.

 

. **You are responsible for any actions you may take based on advice or information you receive online. Use your own good judgment when evaluating information provided through the The Blue Room. Remember that the information provided could be from people of any age and experience level. The decision to conduct transactions with anyone is your own, and you should do your own research prior to making any decisions.**

[GridGirl]

Another technical forum I frequent is ControlBooth. Over there they're far stricter on what can and can't be posted when it comes to "dangerous" topics (rigging and power, mostly) - and this topic would probably have been locked and hidden long before now. I personally think that the balance here on the BR is perhaps better than over at CB - but that's just my opinion - and also it's a US-based forum and I suspect the "sueing" culture is much stronger over there!

 

Anyway, back on topic! I used to work in a venue with a full wooden grid - I believe it was point-load rated at about 250kg. From what I remember, it was 3x1 for the "slats" and heavier timber as the supports, with steel beams where the blocks sat in their normal positions, but we were OK to shift the odd loft block onto the timber if we wanted to fly a short batten (hemp house). I'd get pictures, but I'm in a different country and I don't actually think the building is there any more, having been badly damaged in the Christchurch earthquake.

[andy_s]

The funny thing about 3by1 is it comes in different sizes, and in hard and soft varieties., all of which will offer different load-bearing characteristics.