Unusual Access Requirements

[Seano]

True true, but difficult access doesn't mean rigging company does it. You don't see riggers getting called in when people need to clean skylights.

 

That was all I meant. If they can do rigging, but can't do access, then it is an access company they need, not a rigging one. But yeah, if for the same money they can get a rigging company then that's a bonus.

 

Er...

Difficult access window cleaning is generally done by difficult access window cleaners, yes.

Rigging requires riggers, where access is difficult it requires riggers who can cope with difficult access. This all seems like pretty obvious stuff.

 

Nah. B isn't an option!

You seem very sure about that.

I am not so sure - I think perhaps it could be.

 

Whilst against the manufacturers advice...

That's the place to stop that train of thought I'd have thought.

In that paragraph you've given the OP a choice between manufacturer's advice and random bloke off the internet's advice. No brainer.

 

...then you just need a beam trolley or two and off you go.

Its a thought. Fraught with peril, but the peril may not be impossible to mitigate. (Risk assessment, rescue plan, blah, blah, zzzzz... )

 

Mind you, if a beam trolly will roll right out from the accessible bit to the spot when a point is required is there really any need for a rigger to visit that precise location anyway? ;)

 

A subtitle sheet or sheets of hardboard or similar to spread the load should make the use AWP's feasible.

Hardboard isn't really suitable (or subtitle) for the purpose. If you felt it necessary, you'd be wanting ply for that.

 

Currently Option 4 is becoming more president as the time to get the beams re-tested is running out, and that 3 ton's over 6 -9 points is nothing after you add the rigging hardware and truss. We have links with two rigging companies who we are in discussions with too, Option 2 actually came from one of them.

 

More president? iPhone autocorrect, or are you just getting your mucking worms fuddled?

 

I'm a bit surprised at the idea of getting the beams "tested" - I'd have expected it to be more a case of analysis/calculation by a structural engineer. Is that what you meant?

Your last post suggested you already have a structural engineer on board, is that someone you might consult about the beams?

 

Really quite surprised that a rigging company suggested option 2. Unless they also happen to be a hire-you-a-load-of-steeldeck company.

[brainwave-generator]

True true, but difficult access doesn't mean rigging company does it. You don't see riggers getting called in when people need to clean skylights.

 

That was all I meant. If they can do rigging, but can't do access, then it is an access company they need, not a rigging one. But yeah, if for the same money they can get a rigging company then that's a bonus.

 

Er...

Difficult access window cleaning is generally done by difficult access window cleaners, yes.

Rigging requires riggers, where access is difficult it requires riggers who can cope with difficult access. This all seems like pretty obvious stuff.

 

All true, but it's like... you're paying for the rigging and the difficult access is just something that comes with it.

 

If you can already do the rigging, and find a company who do access solutions alone, you may find the price to be cheaper.

 

I only say this because that's what I did. I did an install in a nightclub and the floor was not fit for a lot of weight, certainly not fit for the size of powered access needed. It would have gone through it. Scaffold tower was one thought but there was a lot of work to do and it would have taken ages. I put it to a local firm who specialise in access alone and we chatted about it and decided interior scaffolding was the way, I hired a load of Cuplok from a stage company and went and did that. It was certainly a lot cheaper than it would have cost me to get a rigging company to come in and do the rigging work just because the access was difficult.

 

Whilst against the manufacturers advice...

That's the place to stop that train of thought I'd have thought.

In that paragraph you've given the OP a choice between manufacturer's advice and random bloke off the internet's advice. No brainer.

 

I worded that badly. It's not against the manufacturers advice but it's not within their guide of how to put it up. But it is in their guide of how to put it up if you don't have outriggers, but not for that particular purpose.

 

I did it regularly with a reputable stage supplier, the HSS bloke knew we were doing it and didn't have a problem, I would happily do it on one of my jobs, the OP has a choice and should be a competent person able to make his own decision on whether he feels it is safe or not.

 

Mind you, if a beam trolly will roll right out from the accessible bit to the spot when a point is required is there really any need for a rigger to visit that precise location anyway? ;)

 

I had that thought. Stick a rope on it and pull from the other side of the room until in position. Reverse on the out. Easy peasy.

 

 

 

OP have you considered this?

[J Pearce]

Am I the only one that can see a similarity in the weight of a half decent scissor lift and the dynamic load of a jumping audience in a close pack at the front of a stage?

Who is building all these inadequate venues?

 

(I'm aware in this scenario of fashion/degree show the audience are slightly more static, but I think the point stands.)

[Seano]

All true, but it's like... you're paying for the rigging and the difficult access is just something that comes with it.

 

Sometimes it is.

[brainwave-generator]

Am I the only one that can see a similarity in the weight of a half decent scissor lift and the dynamic load of a jumping audience in a close pack at the front of a stage?

Who is building all these inadequate venues?

 

(I'm aware in this scenario of fashion/degree show the audience are slightly more static, but I think the point stands.)

 

It's not so much that, it's (if you read his post), computer floor - IE the stuff you can plug a computer into and make it do mad stuff.

 

I doubt your computer screen would like an audience jumping down on it either http://www.blue-room.org.uk/public/style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif

[dbuckley]

The term "computer flooring" is making me raise my eyebrows. I'm ASSuming that means its a computer room type floor made entirely of square tiles one can pick up, like this random pic from a google image search:

 

http://www.puritanflood.com/Portals/52785/images_/Computer%20room%20floor-resized-600.jpg

 

If thats the case then I'd be very careful how one puts point loads on this type of floor. I'm not a rigger so know nothing of that stuff, but have seen some leery things in computer rooms. Care advised. Not all floor panels are created equally.

[TomG]

<snip>

 

A subtitle sheet or sheets of hardboard or similar to spread the load should make the use AWP's feasible.

Hardboard isn't really suitable (or subtitle) for the purpose. If you felt it necessary, you'd be wanting ply for that.

 

Currently Option 4 is becoming more president as the time to get the beams re-tested is running out, and that 3 ton's over 6 -9 points is nothing after you add the rigging hardware and truss. We have links with two rigging companies who we are in discussions with too, Option 2 actually came from one of them.

 

More president? iPhone autocorrect, or are you just getting your mucking worms fuddled?

 

I'm a bit surprised at the idea of getting the beams "tested" - I'd have expected it to be more a case of analysis/calculation by a structural engineer. Is that what you meant?

Your last post suggested you already have a structural engineer on board, is that someone you might consult about the beams?

 

Really quite surprised that a rigging company suggested option 2. Unless they also happen to be a hire-you-a-load-of-steeldeck company.

 

 

President wasn't the right word of choice, but then again english isn't my best skill, but you understood the point that it is fast becoming the only option due to time constraints. I had a feeling it was ply, but also had an inkling that is could be hardboard so I took an educated guess at that, when it comes to the hire, I would have asked and confirmed which I would require to spread the load, which you have now told me is ply.

 

I'll have to get back to you on the structural engineer questions as there are more than just myself involved with this project and will have to discuss the options and answers with them.

 

 

<snip>

 

I had that thought. Stick a rope on it and pull from the other side of the room until in position. Reverse on the out. Easy peasy.

 

OP have you considered this?

 

 

The rope idea would be absolutely solve all our problems, yet we one have access from one end of the beam, thus pulling it into position would be hard, not impossible though thinking about using the other balconies to pull diagonally or similar.

 

Being a "green" building, I don't think they would let use the Martin Jet pack's you suggested, even though they are probably not a sensible idea in a relatively confined space yet. Give it another 10 - 20 years and then this or similar may become more common place in difficult to reach access.

 

 

[kerry davies]

My thoughts exactly Mr B.

 

Having worked with raised access flooring of a very high standard back in Comms days they can indeed take large static loads but I doubt whether they are at all suitable for the dynamic loads an audience places on them. I can't quite convert 450Kg to any recognised standard for raised floors; Specs I also have doubts whether you have sufficient information to build a stage on the floor without raising tiles and dropping through to the building structure which then seriously reduces the overall raised floor capabilities.

 

The problem I see with this query, which is why I have waited for the riggers to suggest things, is that it is a multi-faceted one and my first thought would be to get another venue. I am serious.

 

Just to add a question has anyone else ever built and climbed a 15m tower? I didn't like it one little bit and would not consider any other than a brand new one.

[brainwave-generator]

my first thought would be to get another venue. I am serious.

 

I don't think that will be plausible. It seems to be a college-led production company, working on a college production, in a college building that they're quite fond of.

 

If it is the flooring DB mentioned, perhaps a scaffold structure for the whole room would be best, if the standards could all be placed directly over the floor supports, which I suspect take somewhat higher loads than the floor tiles themselves.

 

And when I say scaffold, I mean get a stage company. Don't try and get a load of 48mm poles and DIY yourself a platform. A good staging company could cover that space in less than a day and I suspect you'd get a better end result.

[TomG]

The term "computer flooring" is making me raise my eyebrows. I'm ASSuming that means its a computer room type floor made entirely of square tiles one can pick up, like this random pic from a google image search:

<image removed>

 

If thats the case then I'd be very careful how one puts point loads on this type of floor. I'm not a rigger so know nothing of that stuff, but have seen some leery things in computer rooms. Care advised. Not all floor panels are created equally.

 

Computer flooring is a complete pain, but so is a building that has no infrastructure or means to get even simple cables in or out of it. The computer flooring we have isn't the stuff you would find in a data centre, this seems to be the heavy duty model so to speak, and is spread through out the whole building, excluding the ground floor atrium, which is just underfloor heated concrete.

 

Recently, before the max floor loads where known, an AV company brought in a 2.5 tonne approx. double width scissor lift to fix a projector on the ground floor. the MEWP was fine out on the concrete as we now know that is rated at 6000kg/SqM but the room it had to work in was computer flooring. The MEWP ripped up and moved the vinyl top layer of tiles and and bent / buckled some of the load bearing tiles.

 

I had no part in last years event due to working on Wimbledon Tennis over the same week, below are what I have heard from colleagues and an engineer who visited the event.

 

Last year they held the same event that we are currently planning in the same Level 4 Space. They used a ground support 2 foot truss with outriggers, in its own right this would have been fine on the flooring as the load would have been spread over 2 or so SqM in each corner, but this wasn't the case. The centre levellers under each corner had ben wound up to they're max height, thus they took all the load with the out riggers barley touching the ground. Further load was added to two of the corners due to the grid of truss not being level when raised and at final trim height.

The engineer who visited the event stated, that because the truss wasn't level, the loads on each corner would be increased dramatically, with up to 70% of the total load on two of the corners and 30% on the other two.

This is something we (this years team) wish not to do, to help us with this goal we have been seeking professional help and following correct practices, and planning everything down to a finite detail. All of which will help us have a safe, legal and enjoyable event for all parties involved. I hope this clears up the situation slightly that we are in and where we are coming from. No we do not know it all, but where we have questions we do not just assume, we make use of our contacts and ask, and if they deem it unsafe or for requirements above our level then they quote us for the minimum service to satisfy the requirements at the level safely.

 

The questions on this forum were just about Access and how you would tackle reaching this unusual location, it wasn't about how to erect a PASMA tower or how to drive a MEWP, both of which we have people qualified to do, I myself have an IPAF, and have been using MEWPs for just over a year and 1/2 now without incident, this doesn't make me an expert but it does say I'm competent to drive potentially dangerous machines, then again so does my Car Driving licence, which I've held for over 3 years now, I'm still by no means an expert.

 

I hope this clears up some of the confusion, please do not hesitate to PM me is you wish to provide advice like DONT DO THIS, or DO DO THIS for such and such a reason that is specific to our requirements. But do reply to this thread if its related to how to access the beams and general access and rigging safety.

 

Regards,

Tom

 

my first thought would be to get another venue. I am serious.

 

I don't think that will be plausible. It seems to be a college-led production company, working on a college production, in a college building that they're quite fond of.

 

If it is the flooring DB mentioned, perhaps a scaffold structure for the whole room would be best, if the standards could all be placed directly over the floor supports, which I suspect take somewhat higher loads than the floor tiles themselves.

 

And when I say scaffold, I mean get a stage company. Don't try and get a load of 48mm poles and DIY yourself a platform. A good staging company could cover that space in less than a day and I suspect you'd get a better end result.

 

If we could have another venue we would gladly have one, this building that we working in causes nothing but problem after problem, either due to its odd shape or stupid design. A good example is we have an OB point outside the back door, it has a 125A3P connection rated at 100A, which wouldn't power any modern OB truck. The OB point also only has BNC and XLR Connectivity which is no use for mulit-camera live broadcasts, the BNC cable lengths are also at approx. 150m which is too far for HD-SDI, and for an apparently HD building is ridiculous. Many of the wall boxes around the building are between 90 and 150m, most of which cannot be used without a re-clocker at the wall box.

 

Thats just the broadcast problems, don't get me started on HVAC / Lighting and Rigging. the best example is the TV studio, double hight space, reduced to single height before the grid was installed, by the HVAC and its well and truly oversized ducts. this now meant when you hang a light off a pantograph in the studio, you either have it at the highest point of the pantograph, or have to dodge lanterns as you walk around the studio, yes I may be 6ft 5 but the grid should have been higher to allow these vertical adjustments.

 

DIY Scaff is out of the question it would be a a proper staging company or none at all. If it is necessary we would fight to get it installed correctly whatever the budget, as Heath and Safety are high up in my list of priorities. If they can afford to carpet one floor at about 450SqM for £60k for "acoustic purposes", then they can afford to get a proper staging company in for a temporary event. Saying that, im sure just due to the static nature of the event this will not be required, the guests on level 4 will be seated and so forth.

 

Thanks for all the opinions again, I'm seeing thing that I wouldn't have thought about and this really helps, even if it is slightly off topic.

[AndyJones]

Beam trolley seems like the way ahead here. You can use the chain rather than any extra ropes to maneuver the trolley into place.

[kerry davies]

My sympathies, Tom, you have a heavily funded, specialist building that is not fit for purpose and I wonder what the next generation will learn under those circumstances.

 

Have you been to see some of the guys working the Dome? They are your nearest source of specialist advice and might even pop in for a gander at the problems for you.

[TomG]

My sympathies, Tom, you have a heavily funded, specialist building that is not fit for purpose and I wonder what the next generation will learn under those circumstances.

 

Have you been to see some of the guys working the Dome? They are your nearest source of specialist advice and might even pop in for a gander at the problems for you.

 

 

It partially the reason why I'm not completing my degree there, the other reason is I want to go back to live events and not broadcasting.

We have a good working relationship with some of AEG's top brass so we should be able to see if they can put us in contact with some of there guy's, hadn't actually thought of that one.

 

Thanks,

Tom

 

 

[dosxuk]

Is this the space in question by any chance?

 

http://www.rave.ac.uk/images/splash/splash_clear4.jpg

 

(from the Ravensbourne website home page)

[kerry davies]

I saw that and began thinking of using the pillars but as the O2 is next door and they have some experience I thought it a short-cut for Tom.

 

They are launching a learning zone with The British Music Experience soon and they may be glad of a case study, dunno, worth contacting. That should be on the cooperation agenda in any case for Ravensbourne, I would hope.