tito Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Hi everybody, I'm setting up a workbench for experimentation with scenographic models, but with the idea of being able to use it also as a puppet animation table. the construction is about 1x1 m and has bars to hold reflectors. I planned it "open", ie with the possibility to be used for various tasks. my main issue now are the lights. before getting into buying anything I wanted to hear suggestions from the community. up to now I considered various things, I will list them below together with the problems I have with each one: 1. simple inexpensive par cans 16 - problem: cannot get a sharp light (unless there is a way to build a small profile spotlight cylinder with two lenses, maybe thats utopia) 2. dedolights or other lights of that kind - problem: none, they are just very expensive 3. leds - problem: which leds, is there something already on the market? 4. optical fibers - up to now the best solution - problem: I still haven't tried any but I see they come with a power supply supplying the light, fiber tubes of varying dimensios (varying number of optical threads) and accessories such as shapers, focalizers and concentrators dedicated to guide and shape the lightbeam. One more problem with OF is you cant dim them separately, or can you? these are the questions, since I know quite little about lights, technically speaking, any suggestion is welcome. tito Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulears Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 For a design of this type, then even MR16 size is far too big. When I had one as a teenager, it was lit with a variety of pea lamps (12V) ones, and each was wrapped with tinfoil that could be bent to restrict the spread of the light. Each lamp was soldered to a bit of thicker wire which was wrapped around the square section timber running left to right. This enabled bending for focusing. The +conductor was soldered direct to the end of the lamp. These light sources were nothing really like real lights, but by experimenting with all sorts of different lamps, you could produce spot, flood and fresnel 'style' light. My floods were the festoon type lamps from car interior lights. If you could find some maglight lamps with twist beam angle, maybe these could be pressed into service. The only snag I had was finding enough power - in the end, a car battery was used because the current demand gets quite high Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 ...even MR16 size is far too big...There are also MR11 (35mm dia) and MR8 (25mm dia). I'd go with MR8s. You can get them in a wide variety of beam angles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indyld Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 ...even MR16 size is far too big... It all depends on what your aiming for. If it's a "traditional" modelbox lighting/photography session for experimentation with colours, angles and the odd texture, then MR16s on mic stands are quick and easy. You usually end up using between two and four, any more just get messy and don't really add any value. As a way to try things out and demonstrate ideas to directors, the ol' technique knocks spots of things like WYSIWYG for realism and speed. In this case, you aren't going for a mini "real" theatre look. For a puppet theatre, it proves more tricky at the kind of scale you are talking about. The only way around that is to upscale the theatre/sets so that the smaller fixtures, particularly available profiles, make more sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerry davies Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Are there any Central School of Speech and Drama students here who can confirm that they have a fibre-optic based system which works well? One of the young 'uns was on about it during the late nineties and it sounded ideal for this OP. Edit after locating spectacles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonhole Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 1. simple inexpensive par cans 16 - problem: cannot get a sharp light (unless there is a way to build a small profile spotlight cylinder with two lenses, maybe thats utopia) The Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama have a 12 channel 'mini rig' which is all Par 16s. They've found a lens fitting for the front of a birdie to make it into a profile. It's not an ideal focus, and you can get a lot of spill (fixed with blackwrap), but they aren't bad considering it's a PAR lamp. If you want any more info, give me a PM and I will put you in touch with the Technical Operations Department there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tito Posted April 1, 2012 Author Share Posted April 1, 2012 Thank you guys for the quick answers, I'll answer one post at a time, sorry its a lot of reading: Paulears, I thought about pea lamps and I would use them along with other light sources as additional " light details" even if I had a more sophisticated system set up. Light temperatures would not correspond among various sources of light though, which could be a problem when photographing, but as an experimental bench I'd be trying that out as well. The problem with pea lights and hand made aluminum foil shaper is that you cannot get sharp light borders. I'll check out the maglite idea, maybe it could work. Brian: MR8's could work for their diameter, and the various beam angles, but the problem of sharp borders still persists, or not? Correct me if I'm wrong. Indyld: I would go for something more sophisticated, a "mini theater" look. It seems to me that the question, like with the other answers, comes down to focusing the light beam and have the option of sharpening and blurring the light borders. For puppet theatre I meant puppet and object stop motion animation, which would include working on various scales, depending on the objects. Currently I have the option of buying a small profile spotlight at half its value, here's the link (http://www.spotlight.it/prodotto.asp?lang=&CategoriaId=4&ProdottoId=11). I guess you had sth like that in mind by "available profiles". This one would be alright for a bigger scale puppet theater as you say. The problem is its not exactly cheap, I would need more than one and I'it wouldn't work on smaller scales. Kerry Davies: I don't know any, but a (now unreachable) friend of a friend was using one. I got the idea that it could work fine, expecially because of the various accessories dedicated to shaping the beam: shapers, focalizers and concentrators. http://www.fibreottiche.it/Fibre_Ottiche.html for more details. I don't know what kind of a beam they produce. And there is the problem of dimming them separately. I'm staying open to suggestions. Jonhole: That's the closest to what I had in mind, finding a way to convert a cheap par 16 into a profile spotlight, or at least realize that its impossible :))))) I would indeed appreciate more info. My english is bad when it comes to abbreviations, so what is a PM? Temporary conclusion: the main problem is sharpening and blurring the beam on a small inexpensive light, be it MR or Par. Momentary idea: what do you guys think about pressing into service the lamp and optics of any old and simple dia projector? Building the box doesn't seem an impossible task. The cooling system could also be used. And maybe connecting the lamp to a dimmer???? Thanks a lot to all, I hope you'll keep bearing with me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonhole Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 Currently I have the option of buying a small profile spotlight at half its value, here's the link (http://www.spotlight.it/prodotto.asp?lang=&CategoriaId=4&ProdottoId=11). I guess you had sth like that in mind by "available profiles". This one would be alright for a bigger scale puppet theater as you say. The problem is its not exactly cheap, I would need more than one and I'it wouldn't work on smaller scales.Rose Bruford College have something very similar to those, not quite the same. Like you say, they are still quite big, and mean that the 'mini rig' isn't quite so mini! Jonhole: That's the closest to what I had in mind, finding a way to convert a cheap par 16 into a profile spotlight, or at least realize that its impossible :))))) I would indeed appreciate more info. My english is bad when it comes to abbreviations, so what is a PM? PM = Personal Message. Click on my username ( <--- over there) and then click 'Send me a message'. If you let me know what your email address is in that message, I will pass it on to the technical team). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tito Posted April 15, 2012 Author Share Posted April 15, 2012 I went on exploring the possibility of turning a slide projector into a profile spotlight and it seems it could work perfectly. I have three slide projectors right now, they are quite cheap at flea markets. They have the set of lenses ideal for this usage. So I opened them up and got rid of all superfluos (transformator, slide drawer, cooling fan) and kept just the front lens and the set of light bulb - reflector - condensing lenses - heat absorbent lens. On the spot where the the slide used to be I'm planning to make the holes for the shapers (we call them knives, don't know the right term in english, the metal plates used to shape the light beam). Being at the location of the slide they should be perfectly "focusable". Moreover I kept the slide drawer with the idea of turning it into a gobo drawer, so I should be able to get the tiniest beam of light perfectly shaped. Slide projectors use a halogen 12 or 24 V - 150 W bi-pin halogen lamp, which I need to replace with a 220-230V-150W bi-pin halogen lamp to be able to discard the transformator which is quite heavy. These 220V - 150 W lamps exist on the market but its not easy to decide which one is the best. Possible problems I foresee could be: overheating and insufficient light power due to the various shapes of threads inside the bulb. The original lamp has a densely concentrated thread wrapped around itself like the one on this link: http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/i/31YN0CqU4%2BL._SL500_AA300_.jpg Moreover I will need to be able to dim the light, and am not sure whether these lamps are dimmable and which problems may go with it. any suggestions or warnings welcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulears Posted April 15, 2012 Share Posted April 15, 2012 http://www.atheatreproject.com/_Media/model_closeup.jpegRichard Pilbrow's model from one of the early books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tito Posted April 16, 2012 Author Share Posted April 16, 2012 Looks very interesting. What are these? Pars, MRs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulears Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 They didn't exist in those days - I believe they are car bulbs - inside tubes with little gel clips to prevent spill! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.