Smoke that wont set off a smoke detector

[glenn@KC]

Hi Everyone,

 

I work in a venue in a school. In the school we have a compliance officer that has really tightened up our health and safety policies around the entire school sight. One of the actions he has put in place is not allowing any fire diction isolation under any circumstances. This means we can’t turn on any smoke machines in the theatre without the risk of setting off the alarms and having to evacuate.

His solution was for me to research whether there is such a machine that produces smoke that won’t set off a detector.

I don’t know of a device that would do this. It seems to me if you make smoke it’s going to act like smoke and set off alarms but I thought it might be worth asking you guy.

 

Any thoughts?

All comments appreciated

 

Cheers

[the kid]

This was a very recent topic if you havea search. Quite simply unless you have thermo detectors good luck finding one.

 

I would consider writing a very good RA covering why and how you will isolate dectors, putting in that you will notify on and off times etc etc and see what they say. It works for me.

[themadhippy]

get a new compliance officer

[Ynot]

get a new compliance officer

A little harsh, and likely not necessary. :)

 

As you will NOT find a smoke detector friendly smoke machine (the clue's in the names...) you have limited choices.

 

Convince the compliance officer (and the school governing body) of the reasons why smoke/haze are essential tools in their box for school productions. If you succeed on that score the next move is to work out a) whether the system CAN be isolated for specific areas under controlled and monitored circumstances or b) whether the detectors in said areas can be replaced for different units - eg rate of rise etc.

 

It might be worth looking at what detectors the school has in the kitchens - after all, not much point in smoke detectors in a space where smoke, steam etc might set them off in error there, yes?

 

Whatever you do, do it in a businesslike manner, backed up with facts and evidence of how things will be better with haze, and how the situation can be resolved.

[J Pearce]

It might be worth a trip to the local professional venue to look at how they do things there. Not that you don't know, but demonstrating that it is entirely normal to isolate smoke sensors and fall back to an alert stage crew/heat sensors etc can be of great help politically.

 

Failing that find the nearest stage brace and improvise :P

[paulears]

You know I'm not sure this is a good move. In professional venues where isolation is a normal activity, many take the isolation very seriously, recording when and who instigates isolation, and making sure that it is re-applied. In a school, I'm not sure this level of responsibility is really appropriate because people may not wish to be responsible for it, or those that are willing are also multi-tasked meaning it goes wrong.

 

In this circumstance, I personally would ask the local Fire Safety Officer for advice. These people know about the different types if sensors, and can offer impartial advice. Smoke, in any density is likely to be a problem. The sensors that track the change in temperature might be a solution - but as the system would be modified by a specialist contractor, why not ask their advice. Until you have a working system there's little chance the H&S person will be convinced.

 

I've been to a number of colleges where fire alarm isolation is carried out by the students going to the panel and entering a code - because that's a normal part of how they work. When they run off at the end of the class, I wonder who re-arms it?

[J Pearce]

A fairly safe system can be put in place using advance request forms, department techs and caretakers. A book lives with the panel and you sign when you isolate and when you re-arm.

Students and teachers should never be allowed near it because they are focussing on other things...

[Brian]

Certainly in the pro venue I work in isolation is quite normal, however the systems that are in place to ensure the continued safety of the 5,000 or more patrons in the building are not something that would work in a school.

 

How many schools would employ two fire officers whilst isolation is in action to act as human fire sensors?

 

The answer has to be to find out about, and then change if necessary, the detectors installed.

[dbuckley]

This all depends on how the isolation is done.

 

If you go to the panel and isolate the detectors, and that is it, then there is clearly a significant risk that the detectors will not be re-enabled.

 

A much better approach is to have a time mechanism, so that the isolators are isolated "for a while" and are then automatically re-enabled.

 

Then the discussion is how long "is a while"? A venue in my neck of the woods that another BR member worked at had a mechanical timer that did either 15 minutes or 30 minutes, cant quite remember. The SM had called cues in the script to have the LX op wind the timer back up at regular intervals.

 

I've seen more technically impressive solutions, but never one so simple and effective.

[rossmck]

I know of a school where isolation is performed by either pupils or staff and is commonplace however the following additional measures have bene added;

 

Isolation is by a code (as paul has experienced)

 

Only the stage, auditorium and backstage area are isolated

 

The isolation is timed for 80 minutes, after which is automatically re-arms (so someone needs to remember to re-isolate it at interval)

 

During isolation an intermittent beep is emitted from the fire panel so its impossible to not notice if it is isolated.

 

It's all been properly risk-assessed and the local fire officer is happy with the precautions and the system is only ever isolated when the isolated areas are occupied and any fire would be noticed immediately

 

 

 

 

 

[themadhippy]

nly the stage, auditorium and backstage area are isolated

best option is to only isolate the automatic detectors leaving the break glasses still working

[sleah]

Had this issue just this week.... our system has a code and it times out after 8 hours re-enabling the zones if not done manually.

 

We were told we could no longer do this :( Apparently all you in theatre land who do isolate zones should not really be doing it!

[Brian]

Apparently all you in theatre land who do isolate zones should not really be doing it!

Sorry but that is rubbish.

 

It's all down to risk assessment and control measures.

[paulears]

In fact the self-certification makes setting rules on this simpler than before when these things were controlled. Now it's up to the venue responsible person to determine all sorts of fire safety issues that were in fact black and white before.

 

My own venue has 1400 seats. This was reduced by the old license to 1200 because of the number of fire exits we have available. We've looked at the available advice and recently told the insurance company that our opinion is that we have sufficient exit capacity for the full 1400, so are going to increase the capacity to 1300. The insurance company are happy, and the self-assessment forms and other documents have been updated. The lowering of the limit was on the instruction, not advice, of the fire officer when he set the old limit. The operations manager has determined the new capacity and signed it off. Just waiting for written confirmation from the insurance company.

 

As soon as the fire officer no longer set the rules, our wet riser and hose reel system was switched off by the fire service. Oddly, they never actually mentioned this. Until we had a small fire and tried to use it we assumed it still functioned. Rather a Dad's Army moment to hear a hiss and ...... nothing. The current system is evacuate the people, and if it cannot be put out with hand-held devices, let it burn!

 

The rules for schools are in practice very similar - but schools rarely have industry people setting their internal policies. When they do, things often get very lax or very restrictive. A local school here has an ex-oil/gas industry health and safety officer and their rules, as a consequence are incredible. A school a few miles down the road are the total opposite - the kids and staff paying no attention to the alarm, as it goes off all the time! A wide difference in practice - but not much us as outsiders can do.

 

In the last year, I have seen two professional venues with a marigold solution to the problem being talked about here - enough said!

[sleah]

Apparently all you in theatre land who do isolate zones should not really be doing it!

Sorry but that is rubbish.

 

It's all down to risk assessment and control measures.

 

That's pretty well what I said. But no, you still shouldn't be doing it. What if there were a fire? :wall: :wall: