Are shows typically TOO loud in general?

[Judge]

Interesting article in current TPI magazine on the Sting tour. FOH engineer Howard Page from Clair is talking about audio levels:

 

" Unfortunately far too many live concert shows are just way too loud overall and totally dominated by bass and sub bass, very out of proportion to what real sound is, as though if the sound isn't overwhelming, the crowd won't get into it.

The problem with that is that you quickly fatigue your crowd with too much bottom end or out of balance too loud mix. The audience becomes less interested quickly because you've basically just beaten them over the head with an audio baseball bat"

 

That actually made me think, yeah - I have been to far too many shows that have just been a bass-fest. And even more that have been an ugly mid--fest actually. Now we have very high powered systems that are theoretically much more accurate and controllable than the old stack o' bins topped with Philishaves and horns.

And yet....they still need careful deployment. Is Howard right do you think? (put aside for the moment the fact that he is Clair's head of engineering, and that for years they touted S4 boxes as being some kind of holy grail of sound)

I think he makes a good point.

[indyld]

Answer from a lampie alert.....:

 

I've always found concert type shows too loud from FOH, as I've mentioned on here before I think. I don't just wear ear plugs for the ol' elf n safety, I wear 'em because I'm more comfortable with -20dB less than we get at the control position. They go in before as the sound check starts and pretty much stay in while there is on stage activity right up until the load out.

 

Of course, I'm not supposed to get "in" to the show as I'm not a punter. And before anyone says "surely as LD/Operator you should "get in" to the show", I say, bollards. You don't get paid for show watching, you get paid for being on the ball all the time and that means not getting too far "in" to anything.

 

For me, those kinds of audio levels are fatiguing in the extreme and actually stop me from being able to hear the music and instruments clearly. With some volume knocked off, you can communicate with people more easily as they become hearable again, even during the loud bits.

 

Anyway, all this means that I'm sure if I were ever actually an audience member, I'd feel the same way.

[ramdram]

It's not just concert type shows.

 

Plenty of musicals are ruined by an over enthusiastic MD who cranks up the band/orchestra and they dominate the entire auditorium. The sound op ends up winding the rm levels and the resultant singing can be muddy as both the music and vocals compete in vibrating your eardrum.

 

And then there's amdram...especially pantos. The blokes in the band imagine it is their gig and the panto is the support act.

[Ynot]

To quote a line from a 50s musical "I've said it before an' I'll say it again...."

Live gigs are DEFINITELY too loud and have been for many years, though I believe it's getting worse.

 

I get the feeling it's LOUD 'because we can' in a lot of cases. SOME punters may relish the big thumping bass but I'd wager the majority wouldn't. But while most punters put up with it, I know a good few who've stopped going to concerts simply because of the expected volume. I know I've turned down going to a couple with my daughters for that very reason.

 

In my opinion it's just not necessary to push open the rear auditorium doors with the bass. But I've spoken to a few gig noise boys who seem to think that it's their god given right to do so, and begger the rest of us!

 

 

 

 

[chelgrian]

Plenty of musicals are ruined by an over enthusiastic MD who cranks up the band/orchestra and they dominate the entire auditorium. The sound op ends up winding the rm levels and the resultant singing can be muddy as both the music and vocals compete in vibrating your eardrum.

 

Most professional West End and touring shows I've seen recently suffer from what I term a 'hole in the middle' mix. There's punchy bass and higher end vocal frequencies and nothing in the middle. I'm not sure what is behind this or if I've just had particularly bad luck.

 

How much latitude does an op in a such a show have and how much is preprogrammed by the sound designer and can't be touched?

 

Personally in shows which aren't making a thing of the sound such as say, Tommy, think I've failed if the audience even realise there is a sound design. Obviously this is subjective and something which sounds clear and natural to the majority of people may be unintelligible to people with impaired hearing.

[laolu]

I've been to a Dream Theater concert a few years ago in a totally inadequate location, where the sound guys cranked up the volume so much I suffered hearing damage. At that time I didn't think of ear plugs, next time I will. I believe if I were exposed to such levels more often, I would eventually loose my tools-of-the-trade, my ears - much too early in life.

 

On the other hand, some countries have regulations as to how high on average one can go, and the organizers ought to pay attention to these. 105 dB SPL I believe is the maximum for two hours. But who checks? Or worse, who cares? :wacko:

[Bobbsy]

On the other hand, some countries have regulations as to how high on average one can go, and the organizers ought to pay attention to these. 105 dB SPL I believe is the maximum for two hours. But who checks? Or worse, who cares? :wacko:

 

Well, the local receiving house where I freelance occasionally certainly checks. There's a permanent record of every show that can be (and is) checked plus a read out of the level at any point at the mix position. (The measurement is taken from a rail at the front of the balcony.)

 

That said, I fully agree that far too many shows are just plain too loud. This applies to both concerts and musical theatre. As far as I'm concerned, this is just plain unnecessary and pretty pointless. If the whole show is mixed too loud, your ears soon get used to it and stop perceiving it as loud anyway. Far better to keep level reasonable and give yourself the headroom for occasional big peaks when the show justifies it.

[GridGirl]

On the other hand, some countries have regulations as to how high on average one can go, and the organizers ought to pay attention to these. 105 dB SPL I believe is the maximum for two hours. But who checks? Or worse, who cares?

 

I do wonder if Australia is stricter on this than the UK perhaps - judging by Bobbsy's example above, and also my own experiences and a conversation I had last night. Although it's a different situation, we monitor every opera and ballet we do for noise in the orchestra pit, and all the information gets fed into a (very complicated!) spreadsheet which then references the roster and spits out a graph of each player's noise exposure over the season. If it's too high - weekly average above 85dBa - then we have to start taking measures. I was talking to a couple of sound guys on our Opera on Sydney Harbour project last night - they primarily work on rock gigs; when I mentioned we'd be monitoring the harbour show for noise tonight they were very interested and brought up several examples of rock shows they'd worked on which had been monitored for noise (with rather scary results!).

[dbuckley]

I find a good proportion rock shows in general excessively loud. I couldn't believe how loud Brian Wilson was a couple of years back, given he's nearly 300 years old and comes from the age of 100W PAs, I'd have thought his show would have been less opressive. On the other hand, locals the Pink Floyd Experience provided a masterclass in perfect sound including dynamic range, from a whisper to a roar.

 

On the other hand, I'm fed up of seeing amateur theatre shows that are too quiet. Saw Rent last week, was prepared to be very disappointed, but it was at a reasonable volume, which was nice.

[HolyPhish]

So throwing in the newbie question.

 

 

I know these are only a few examples but for a general guess-timate.

 

What volume would u expect as average for:

 

Outdoor Rock Festival:

Outdoor Fete with music:

Indoor Rock:

Indoor Musical/Opera:

Indoor Drama:

[Simon Lewis]

What volume would u expect as average for:

 

Sound pressure levels vary according to event, location, genre etc. but you coudl provbably cite 95dB(A) to 105dB(A) as average levels for typical rock gigs. However, the use of multiband compression, extended frequency response loudspeakers (particularly LF units) and better coverage of the audience means that the perceived loudness is likely to be higher.

 

The Capita Symonds report "Measurement of noise levels that staff are exposed to at live music events" is worth reading. It basically says, most events expose workers to too high a level of sound.

[Grum]

I just got back from a tour of Europe and I have to say that this is one area where the UK is lagging behind. Well over 70% of the venues we went to had Db meters measuring both current and 15 min average. Many had portable monitors that could sit at FOH on the toured mixer that allowed the engineer to be sure he was compliant but also allowed him to build the level throughout the set as required.

 

This was even the case in some venues that weren't much bigger than pubs. I rarely see this type of equipment in the UK outside of festivals.

 

In the UK it seems that thew noise at work regs are largely ignored and venues and the authorities only seem to worry about the sound outside the venue i.e. if it's not bothering the neighbours then carry on.

 

It's not always the engineer, I've worked for artists that were so concerned with sub-bass being high that when the bass drum was hit the Lighting desk crashed. Even the engineer said that it was too loud but that was what the client wanted, true he could have refused or lied and turned it down during the gig but if he'd been caught he'd have been replaced with someone more compliant.

[kerry davies]

The Capita report and Grum's post suggest that there are gaps in enforcement and that local authority enforcement officers are not adequately trained or informed. This does not reduce the employers duty of care or that of those working on events.

 

Grum also suggests that outdoor event production has tried at least whereas other sectors tend to ignore the problem hoping it will go away. Capita suggest that sound engineers are not sufficiently knowledgable or interested in compliance and there exists a culture of "can't mix with protection" prevalent in the industry.

 

If one combines the above with audience members beginning to sue for hearing damage it suggests that current practice is not good enough and UK fixed-venue management is not up to the job. As a group of live event professionals we can do little about the appalling level of EHO quality and need to concentrate on raising our own game.

 

I have, in the past before the law came in, told a monitor engineer that if he didn't turn it down I was evacuating all other crew and closing the venue before he dropped it below 140 at his desk, what would you guys do?

 

Edit To Add: Simon's suggested levels are about right and 95 or 100 at FoH seem standard figures for rock band events though from an audience PoV barriers around stacks and speaker positioning are also important elements to consider.

[laolu]

I have, in the past before the law came in, told a monitor engineer that if he didn't turn it down I was evacuating all other crew and closing the venue before he dropped it below 140 at his desk, what would you guys do?

 

 

Shoot the guy

[Gareth Owen]

Most professional West End and touring shows I've seen recently suffer from what I term a 'hole in the middle' mix.

Can you be more specific about the frequency range you are referring to?