Getting small venues to agree to use haze/fog

[numberwrong]

A lot of small venues just say no to hazers because they dont want to risk the fire alarms going off

 

I'm sure most fire systems would have been installed pre smoking ban so whats the deal?

 

Any advise on how fire systems actually work in relation to haze and how you can convince venue managers/staff that it will be ok.

Are you legally aloud to disable smoke detectors? I dont want to flood the place with dense smoke just enough for the lights like it would have been pre smoking ban.

 

I would like to have some information so I can confidently challenge someone being perhaps too cautious

 

Cheers

 

 

 

 

[Ali2580]

A lot of small venues just say no to hazers because they dont want to risk the fire alarms going off

 

I'm sure most fire systems would have been installed pre smoking ban so whats the deal?

 

Any advise on how fire systems actually work in relation to haze and how you can convince venue managers/staff that it will be ok.

Are you legally aloud to disable smoke detectors? I dont want to flood the place with dense smoke just enough for the lights like it would have been pre smoking ban.

 

I would like to have some information so I can confidently challenge someone being perhaps too cautious

 

Cheers

 

This has been discussed quite a few times so use the search bar above.

 

But in the end, if they don't want smoke or haze in their venue, then that is the end of it. Each venue will have different fire systems in place, some are haze and smoke friendly including things like isolation and all that, some are not and will point blank refuse. 'Challenge' is perhaps the wrong word... Convince? But as said, in the end, it is up to them. They will know the venue fire system better than anyone else.

 

 

 

[brainwave-generator]

Often, whether or not they are allowed smoke / haze is a decision made by the fire service when the license is granted, not by the venue just being difficult.

 

Fire alarms are available that have a 'performance' mode which switches off the smoke detectors in the vicinity of the hazer, but keeps the rest on, as well as the push-button alarms etc. They're also usually hooked up to red beacons and emergency lighting and stuff.

 

I wouldn't go 'confidently challenging' any venues, it's their policy and it's not up to you to challenge it, but simply find a safe and rule-friendly alternative.

[the kid]

Are you legally aloud to disable smoke detectors?

 

I would think any insurance company would like to know why detectors 50-55 were not working and covered in a interesting fire melted substance without the venue knowing.

If the venue wont allow it they wont allow it. If you ask early enough they may be able to explain why or have a solution.

[Ynot]

OK.

 

There has been some accurate response here but also some not quite so.

 

Firstly, after the smoking laws changed I would imagine that a LOT of venues installed new or updated their systems - due to those changes in legislation.

 

Secondly you - as a visiting group/company can have NO direct responsibility for isolating any areas within a venue. That responsibility (and by extension liability) belongs firmly with the venue operator and their staff. In SOME venues yes, there will be a facility whereby some areas can be cut out of the detection loop TEMPORARILY, but ONLY on the basis that a confirmed system of manual monitoring is in place to allow for non-stage derived smoke as well as a fixed and predetermined timescale for the outage. This would be tightly controlled by specific venue staff as any failure in the monitoring or reset of the system could well result in at best the loss of their licence.

 

The Fire Service are not directly involved in any decisions about what fire precautions and measures are taken in a licenced venue - not these days anyway. They will certainly offer advice, BUT the onus now is for venues to write up their own processes/procedures for managing fire safety. So it is THEIR decision whether to make the facility of a 'smokeable' zone or not based on their assessments.

 

What I will say is that whilst not an offence to disable or mask a smoke detector, I would certainly not wish to be on the receiving end of the legal questions if in the case of any incident where such actions have taken place. Indeed I did hear of one venue who knowingly (in ignorance) allow plastic bags to be placed about 3 stage side detectors by visiting crew and this was observed by a fire service inspection. The gig was shut down immediately and the venue was taken to task. Ironically, I believe that the detectors were in fact rate-of-rise and as such would not have needed disabling for haze!

 

Your ONLY option, OP, is to discuss the needs of the show WELL IN ADVANCE with the venues concerned. ASK them what options they have, and DON'T try to come the heavy with them. Cooperation works wonders in most places. It won't guarantee they'll give what you want but it's worth a try.

[numberwrong]

The last time I was in a small venue I did a site visit and asked the owner wether smoke was aloud and he said to test it on the day and see if it set the alarms off. fair enough, but come the gig he just said no smoke and gave no reason.

 

 

I fully respect venues licences and their knowledge of their own fire systems, however you can see my point if someone dosen't give you a good reason and really dosen't seems to know anything about the venues licence or how the fire system works in relation to hazers.

 

At the end of the day I want to do the best thing for the band and the venue Wouldn't it be good if a little persistence resulted in the venue actually finding out their position on haze, finding it's aloud, and subsequent gigs look better as a result?

 

thanks for your replies so far

 

 

 

 

Edit: also shouldn't venues aim for a fire system/licence that allows haze? they may not have thought about it before and someone explaining the benefits could get them to change things...?

[Ynot]

Wouldn't it be good if a little persistence resulted in the venue actually finding out their position on haze, finding it's aloud, and subsequent gigs look better as a result?

If I'm honest, I suspect many small venues don't in fact have regular day to day staff who have much of an inkling of what their Fire Alarm kit does or can be made to do - hence my comment about contacting them WAY in advance to discuss with the management - who MAY know more.

also shouldn't venues aim for a fire system/licence that allows haze? they may not have thought about it before and someone explaining the benefits could get them to change things...?

And again a gut feeling that many small venues probably couldn't give a rat's ass about those troublesome tech-like creatures who want to use smoke.

[spectralight]

I used to own and run a venue in Southend. when the time came to have the fire alarm fitted, I sat down and discussed it with the fire chief. The conclusion was that NO smoke detectors were required in the main auditorium or on stage. The reason was that for an installation to meet requirements, all efforts must be made to eliminate false alarms. It was a theatre and theatres use smoke, haze and pyro's. A fire alarm is an early warning system put in place to save lives. If there is an auditorium with people in it, the chances are they will spot a problem before a fire alarm is triggered. I now work in a theatre that is a listed building. Because of this ALL areas have to be protected with smoke detectors. We have a system that allows us to switch the main theatre and the studio space over to heat detectors, for any performance requiring the use of effects that generate smoke.It is our responsibility to switch them back at the end of the performance (after the smoke has cleared).

 

Daniel.

[kerry davies]

Facts of life, James. The owner is reponsible for what does and does not happen in his venue and justifying himself to visitors is not necessary. He can and will make spot decisions which he is perfectly at liberty to change as and when he sees fit.

 

At the end of this particular day you do what you are told. End of. His venue, his licence, his business.

[brainwave-generator]

Secondly you - as a visiting group/company can have NO direct responsibility for isolating any areas within a venue. That responsibility (and by extension liability) belongs firmly with the venue operator and their staff. In SOME venues yes, there will be a facility whereby some areas can be cut out of the detection loop TEMPORARILY, but ONLY on the basis that a confirmed system of manual monitoring is in place to allow for non-stage derived smoke as well as a fixed and predetermined timescale for the outage. This would be tightly controlled by specific venue staff as any failure in the monitoring or reset of the system could well result in at best the loss of their licence.

 

 

That was what I referred to as the 'performance setting' on some fire systems, installed specifically for live performance venues.

 

The Fire Service are not directly involved in any decisions about what fire precautions and measures are taken in a licenced venue - not these days anyway. They will certainly offer advice, BUT the onus now is for venues to write up their own processes/procedures for managing fire safety. So it is THEIR decision whether to make the facility of a 'smokeable' zone or not based on their assessments.

 

Perhaps not in the UK, but since this forum is populated by many international touring professionals, I commented based on that. There are still many countries where the fire service are responsible for both the capacity licensing of the venue and the fire systems installed.

 

Your ONLY option, OP, is to discuss the needs of the show WELL IN ADVANCE with the venues concerned. ASK them what options they have, and DON'T try to come the heavy with them. Cooperation works wonders in most places. It won't guarantee they'll give what you want but it's worth a try.

 

Indeed, like I said above, "confidently challenging" somebody is likely to make them think you are an a**hole and will only encourage them not to cooperate!

[numberwrong]

Facts of life, James. The owner is reponsible for what does and does not happen in his venue and justifying himself to visitors is not necessary. He can and will make spot decisions which he is perfectly at liberty to change as and when he sees fit.

 

At the end of this particular day you do what you are told. End of. His venue, his licence, his business.

 

Yes I totally agree. However the case I have mentioned, the owner (and main contact) was very difficult to work with, the smoke was just a drop in the ocean and the guys organising the night are not going to return! The annoyances didn't seem to be licensed based, he was just a rude and un-helpful person. The organisers have done nights in many venues and never had this before. He is running a business and sadly if more promoters/organisers have the same experience then his business will fold.

 

Indeed, like I said above, "confidently challenging" somebody is likely to make them think you are an a**hole and will only encourage them not to cooperate!

I work with different people almost every day and pretty sure nobody yet thinks I'm an A**hole http://www.blue-room.org.uk/public/style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif my way with words is a lot nicer in real life then in type

 

99% of the people here will be aiming for the highest standards with their own productions, It's just annoying when you come across a jobsworth bar manager who cant be arsed to help you when you're being nothing but co-operative and polite back (and in my case doing the whole job as a free bee for a mate). The success of the night impacts on the success of the venue.

[timsabre]

However the case I have mentioned, the owner (and main contact) was very difficult to work with, the smoke was just a drop in the ocean and the guys organising the night are not going to return! The annoyances didn't seem to be licensed based, he was just a rude and un-helpful person. The organisers have done nights in many venues and never had this before. He is running a business and sadly if more promoters/organisers have the same experience then his business will fold.

 

That's life working with small venues. If this is the first such person you have come across, you have been very lucky, or haven't been doing it very long.

[brainwave-generator]

99% of the people here will be aiming for the highest standards with their own productions, It's just annoying when you come across a jobsworth bar manager who cant be arsed to help you when you're being nothing but co-operative and polite back (and in my case doing the whole job as a free bee for a mate). The success of the night impacts on the success of the venue.

 

And said jobsworth bar managers who simply can't be arsed... will not change their opinion just because you recall some information you found on the internet.

 

If somebody can't be bothered to help you, it takes more than facts and figures to get them on side!

[kerry davies]

"God, grant me the serenity to accept the things (people) I cannot change" etc etc etc.

[numberwrong]

"God, grant me the serenity to accept the things (people) I cannot change" etc etc etc.

 

I'm more of a making friends / having fun / generating enthusiasm and influencing people (in a good way) type of person. Hopefully sorting out the fire system will be the most fun the manager will have had in the last 15 years, and his whole life will become completely amazing, his venue a runaway success and he'll go on to create world peace.