Low budget school theatre - Scanners or Movers?

[ben-collins]

Hi There,

 

I have recently been made redundant from a theatre and I am now working at a schools theatre as the stage manager and technician, and I am hoping to include some intelligent lighting fixtures into their venue. The only problem is that I am new to the “cheap” market and have only ever been involved with the high end Martin Mac lighting fixtures in my previous job. I have been to Thomann.de as recommended by a mate, and have found two fixtures (a mover and a scanner) that I think may do the trick. But I am still unsure about the fixtures and have many questions about them, I know I “get what I pay for” and they’re cheap and there never going to be the same quality as the Martin Mac range, but I’ve got a small budget and that’s all I have to work with!

 

 

 

Here are some of my questions...

 

 

 

· What are the difference between the brightness of the two fixtures?

 

· What is the pan and tilt like? (is it fast, 8bit or 16bit? how accurate is it? does it always point at the exact same spot if programmed by DMX?)

 

· How fast are the gobo and colour wheels? (are the motors accurate?)

 

· How easy are they to clean and maintain? (are they modular like the Macs? Are they easy to take apart?)

 

· How long will they last? (can the parts be replaced? How long will the ballast last? Will a fixture with a standard bulb last longer because there’s less to go wrong than a ballast and discharge lamp?)

 

 

 

Here are the two fixtures I found...

 

 

 

 

 

Moving Head

 

 

 

iMove 5s (re-badged as Stairville MV250H)

 

 

 

http://www.thomann.de/gb/stairville_mv250h...ng_head_elc.htm

 

 

 

http://www.djequipment.co.uk/acatalog/IM-5S.jpg

 

 

 

· It looks easy to maintain because it only has a few screws to remove the cover at the top of the head, also if you see the “inner view” of the picture (2nd link) it looks very plain and simple inside with only two wheels and a lamp, so it looks like there’s a lot less to go wrong and it’s easy to repair and clean. But that’s only a guess. Am I correct?

 

· Also do the colour and gobo wheels come out in modules like the Macs so it’s easy to clean? If so are they on clips or screws?

 

· Also what is the lamp like? Is it bright?

 

· Pan and tilt? (Fast? Accurate?)

 

· How fast are the gobo and colour wheels? (are the motors accurate?)

 

· Does it have pan and tilt auto correction?

 

· How long will it last?

 

 

 

Scanner

 

 

 

STAIRVILLE SCANNER SC250 PRO

 

 

 

http://www.thomann.de/gb/stairville_scanner_sc250_pro.htm

 

 

 

· It looks good, but is it?

 

· How long will it last (how long will the ballast last?)

 

· Also do the colour and gobo wheels come out in modules like the Macs so it’s easy to clean? If so are they on clips or screws?

 

· Also what is the lamp like? Is it bright?

 

· Pan and tilt? (Fast? Accurate?)

 

· How fast are the gobo and colour wheels? (are the motors accurate?)

 

· Is it easy to take apart, easy to repair and clean?

 

· This looks like to would be very complex inside because that’s a lot of kit to fit inside a small scanner, it a pain when it goes wrong, is it fiddly to take apart?

 

 

 

 

 

If you could advise me on what fixture I should get it would be really appreciated, or if you own or have experienced any of these fixtures please post!!!

 

 

 

Cheers

[paulears]

I'll jump in quickly here before what usually happens, happens.

 

As a new member you won't be aware of some of the rather quaint, but common ways the Blue Room works.

 

The topic of movers in schools has been covered so many times, we've lost count - and all your questions are already answered if you use the search box top right - which can search just the BR archives, rather than the internet.

 

I'll summarise what everyone would say, by paraphrasing the many topics that have gone before.

 

In real terms, we don't recommend movers for schools. Plenty of reasons, but the main one being running costs and unavailability of parts for non-big name movers in only a few short years. Many schools tend to select movers because it kind of solves the access problem - with so many schools having H&S zealots with no proper experience of risk assessment.

 

Movers can be 'pointed' and recoloured into 6 or seven basic colours. This is attractive, and they can do a lot of 'waggling' - making the music or dance events look less naff than they may do based on performance alone. The snags come when picking budget kit. It will work, and people like Thomann will give you a long guarantee period - however, fixing them yourself is pretty difficult as although the big manufacturers can supply you with service manuals and quick turnaround on replacement parts, brands like Stairville, that are not 'real' brands are more of a problem. Getting a sensor replacement might prove a reason to scrap one just because the factory have moved on, and nobody is sure that an alternate sensor from something else really is a direct replacement? A grid full of even cheap profiles and Fresnels will produce much more usable light than a small number of movers. They can also be a millstone around a technicians neck when a teacher cannot walk into a room, prod a switch or two and make light! Finding the technician to do it for them can seem fun the first tow or three times, but becomes an extra part of the job - or, the teachers can't faff about with the technicalities and don't use them.

 

Do you have sufficient running budget to cope with repair and lamp costs? Many people also hate the noise the damn things make.

 

It seems the common solution to lighting is:

1. Buy a small number of expensive, longer life products

2. Buy more 'no-brand' products

3. Invest in a conventional rig

4. Have a reasonable stock of generics and hire in movers when you need them.

 

 

In terms of kit - watch that the kit has wide enough angles to cope with your ceiling height. Many cheap scanners have very narrow beams that can't fill your space. If you must chose movers, then my own preference is for washlights in the highest quantity, and less profile types. Being able to wash a space with colour is great and much more use than spinning gobos.

 

The current qualifications don't require the use of moving lights, although they can obviously be used if you want - and actually need them.

 

Being blunt - schools often 'need' movers because the technician wants them to play with. If present and available, the kids love them because they are fun and produce effects lighting.

 

My own view is that in addition to generic lighting fixtures, they are handy to have. In replacement of generics, they are useless.

 

Brand wise - I've bought expensive and cheap. 3 years later, the expensive ones were still working - the cheap ones hadn't fared so well, with spares for one unavailable, another had gone rusty inside (no idea if this was water damage or just poor quality materials, although water damage to a unit left mainly in one position was difficult to imagine).

 

Feature wise - to be useful, they MUST have a dimmer channel or programming is faffy - those cheap scanners have a shutter for flashy flashy, but I don't think they have a proper dimmer channel.

This also ignores the scanners that overheated and melted, and the other Chinese scanners that sounded like a wheezy coalminer when moving!

 

Best of luck.

 

The old maxim that you get what you pay for applies absolutely with moving head or mirror lighting kit.

[ben-collins]

thanks for the quick reply!

 

I see what you mean, and with such a low budget maybe it is worth getting a bigger investment for better kit than to keep having to buy cheap stuff that just doesn’t last that long.

[paulears]

If you had 3-5 grand to spend, then you can always have a few of these for the more 'fun' events where waggly beams look good - they're just very mimited in what they can do. The narrow beams mean they appear bright, but they aren't.

 

My own experience is that the optics are also quite poor. I have some 575W chinese origin movers and they cannot compete with a Martin Mac250 entour - that's pretty poor really.

 

Movers look brilliant in quantity, but a few weaker, feature limited ones are really a waste of money. Far more use for a school would be as many LED par cans as you can get - they're still not 'proper' stage lighting - but they work, and with a pile of them, can do lots of things - illumination and effects!

 

I know a school where they have them on all 4 sides of a dance/drama space and they have a simple control that is preset to provide 3 faders, red, green and blue on all the lights - and the staff and students can easily cope with this on their own. Switch power on, wait a few seconds, shove fader - and they use them ALL the time it's so easy.

[Mr Steve]

The moving head above should be avoided unless you are a mobile DJ. I worked with one once*, they are loud when they move, limited in their features, dim and loud fan-wise. Not a fixture to be taken seriously.

 

I echo Paul's sentiments. I too work in a school, and the school does not have movers. I have access to some as and when I need them and even with a big name, I've had to spend out on parts for them not to mention lamps.

 

Depending on your needs, budget, competency and so on you would need a better specified fixture for general use than the two listed above, as well as considering the power you have available to you and the power of your generic rig.

 

 

 

 

*a MV250H, not a mobile DJ

[ojc123]

What Paulears said.

Schools are a very different environment. I have no movers in the school rig for all the maintenance reasons. Loads of generics. If I do need movers I'll hire them in.

(You might like to join the Schools Theatre Support Group. It's on a sticky on the home page.)

[LXbydesign]

Im about to commit suicide here by saying that movers in a school which has a dedicated venue tech (not a student) isnt a bad thing.

 

I have 12 CP movers (6 wash and 6 spot) and I do maintanence on them once every three months - ie opening them up and cleaning the wheels, blowing out the trapped dust , clearing the fan airways and so a clean mover is a happy mover.

 

Ive been involved with the same venue now both in the old place and now in our new theatre for the last 4.5 years - and the only trouble ive had is to replace one colour flag on one of the washes. Thats it. Even for that, I just sent it off - it was gone for a week, came back fixed and serviced as well!! Not bad.

 

It pays to maintain!! It takes me just 2 days (allowing for other interuptions) to get them all cleaned up!

 

I totally agree its a big waste of time having them if it just for a tech or the students to play with daily, but if you have the resource and a proper venue tech to take care of them , I think its a great asset for a school venue to have them.

 

We have picked up lots of corporate work during our holidays, purely because our spec is so good for a school - sorry - academy!!! :-)

[paulears]

No - I don't think anybody will say you're wrong - but it has to be said, you are in a minority. Most places have very sparse technical support, and sadly, many schools assume levels of ability yet never ask the right questions at interview. There are many school and college technicians who work amazingly hard and have good facilities for servicing, maintaining and operating kit. Sadly to say there are also places (paying the same!) who suffer from technical support that really challenges the word 'support'. Some seem to somehow imagine the skills needed to do the job can be gained on the job, but without anybody actually guiding them!

[Jivemaster]

Movers work well IF you have time and budget for regular servicing, usually only bigger name movers have a spare parts supply. Still I think that an array of par cans will be fit for more things than a couple of cheap movers, and they wil likely be serviceable after 10 years which a mover may not.

[Matthew Robinson]

they are loud..., limited in their features [and] dim

 

that could go for some DJs as well...

[ben-collins]

We have picked up lots of corporate work during our holidays, purely because our spec is so good for a school - sorry - academy!!! :-)

 

We also hire out our hall during the holidays to external dance groups and theatre groups because we have such a large hall and stage, so maybe I could get some sort of money out of that to pay for some decent kit?

[LXbydesign]

Thats as maybe ben - but I have found that some 'theatre companies' and dance groups are more hasstle than its worth. They take a lot of time and resource and expect everything for nothing.

 

Im not saying they are all like this, but in the past I have found that these type of groups - when hiring the venue- expect they have access to anything and everyting and get surprised when you say ' no you cant have 15 radio mics / haze / moving lights and LED batterns for no extra (dispite this being said in the tech spec / contract).

 

While corporate work is also very demanding - it pays and not only can you as a venue tech charge a decent daily rate for being on-site, most clients, within reason, EXPECT to be paying for this and that at extra contra to the basic hire of the venue.

 

The only theatre or dance groups I prefer to take bookings from now are either ones ive worked with before , or otherwise we very clearly lay out the T & C's of booking the venue and what costs are incurred if they suddenly say when they arrive 'oh, is it possible to . . . . ' or ' can we have a .......' - which normally happens.

 

I have to say , the worst culprits for this are kiddie dance schools.

[Ynot]

We have picked up lots of corporate work during our holidays, purely because our spec is so good for a school - sorry - academy!!! :-)

 

We also hire out our hall during the holidays to external dance groups and theatre groups because we have such a large hall and stage, so maybe I could get some sort of money out of that to pay for some decent kit?

No - I wouldn't recommend that at all.

As the (voluntary) manager of a very busy small theatre we host a high proportion of dance school shows and local 'variety' shows. Not many of them seem to have the business acumen to be able to price into their budget for anything much more than a couple of extra bits & bobs over the main hire fee. Those that can do so (and there are only a couple) have enjoyed a far more technical show with things like LED star cloth, moving heads, pyro and imaginative staging. We own NONE of that, and it comes in from hire companies every time at the hirer's expense.

 

The problem you WILL get is if you have it hanging in the rig, they'll get used FAR more for 'free' than at cost because there will always be the line 'Oh well, just this time we won't charge' etc. But hired in each time there's no choice.

 

EDIT - that's sort of what LXByDesign just said...

:huh:

[dmxtothemax]

thanks for the quick reply!

 

I see what you mean, and with such a low budget maybe it is worth getting a bigger investment for better kit than to keep having to buy cheap stuff that just doesn't last that long.

 

 

I think you also need to consider, what the people who control the money are willing to spend?

If you go to them and recommend spending extra money for better quality fixtures,

they might say, sorry we just dont have the money to spend!

Sometimes you have to work with less than desirable equipment,

Because of financial pressure.

So if the cheapies are all they can afford,

You just might have to suck it up and go with it!

Like I have said before, sometimes being a lighting tech means ,

Doing the best with what you have, at the time.

Sometimes after they see what can be done with the new fangled moving lights,

They might be willing to spend more on good quality fixtures.

[Bobbsy]

Listen to Paulears for he is good and wise in the world of schools.

 

Just to emphasize one of his points, the economy movers you have linked to are pretty much useless in a theatre/drama situation. They are designed to waggle and look pretty in a disco/club situation, not to provide subtle and dramatic lighting during a play or musical. I can't think of any classic drama or musical for which flashing, wiggling lights would be a suitable effect.

 

...and all that is before the issues of maintenance, reliability or spare parts. For the budget you have--or even double the budget you have--you would gain far more flexibility with a good selection of generics.

 

Bob

(yeah, I do sound but I've had kids in high school and spent many years as a tech advisor to various youth drama groups)