Mirror Lights

[stillwave]

Hi All,

 

Have searched for this on blueroom, but haven't come across something quite as I require.

 

We are currently rewiring the backstage dressing rooms at our venue, one of the new parts of the install will be mirror lights. The managment want something which looks like traditional mirror lights (the opal glode diffusers) but also hasn't got halogens or tungsten lamps in (fire safety, to stop local users hanging coats off!) & has to be fairly cheap.

 

Technically we want something that has easily replacable lamps lamps (cheap) & has a fairly easy method to have surface mount 20mm conduit going into it. I understand about the need to use halogens / tungsten to replicate the colour temp of light onstage but have been overruled.

 

so far I have come up with a fitting that is chrome with 4 bayonet sockets in for lamps, I have also found a cheaper version with 5 ES sockets at that famous swedish flatpack store (groan) for £20, these both though don't have 20mm knockouts & are fairly flimsy (plastic bodies)

 

so to sum up I am looking for mirror lights that:

- have a traditional look to them

- don't use tungsten, halogen or other relatively hot lamps (would probably mean using fluro's)

- have 20mm knockouts or similar method to accept 20mm conduit

- cheap

 

failing that I'll nip to B&Q & get some of those surface mount ceiling pattresses ** laughs out loud **! :o

 

hope you can help

 

Regards,

 

Ben Wainwright

[the kid]

Why avoid tungsten? I have just had 4 mirrors + lamps fitted at work, the tubes are 20 + 30 or 40 cm and are maybe a pencil and a half thick run cold, and are a warm colour. Possibly too warm but in comparison to normal tungsten they are fantastic.

 

We have 2 long tubes and 1 shorter tube a mirror each tube is individually switch able but they all run off one master switch.

[J Pearce]

Maybe some enclosure that prevents hanging would be worthwhile?

 

Also consider a time delay switch, both for energy saving purposes and for safety reasons.

[stillwave]

Hi,

 

The powers that be are very insistant upon them not being tungsten or halogen, personally I like some of the ideas regarding aluminium reflector GU10 spots in a similar fitting to one I have seen on here where they were mounted above the mirrors at about 45 Degrees.

 

Hadn't thought about time delay switches, might suggest this as I think it may be worthwhile.

 

As in my original post I would like actual fittings that have the 'traditional' theatre type mirror globe lights look, with the possibility of 20mm knockouts or a suggestion to get a 20mm conduit near enough to supply the fitting, preferably with supplier purchased from.

 

the ones I have seen are these:

'MUSIK' wall lamp

Famous swedish flatpack store

 

although as I've said, these don't have 20mm knockouts. this seems to be the main problem with the fixtures I've come across as they all seem to be for installs where the cable is buried in the wall, a route which I'm not prepared to go down. (old building, lots of hidden secrets in the walls! ** laughs out loud **)

 

 

 

Edit: seemed to have posted that twice?

[boswell]

personally I like some of the ideas regarding aluminium reflector GU10 spots in a similar fitting to one I have seen on here where they were mounted above the mirrors at about 45 Degrees.

 

to be exact, they are not GU10 spots, they are 12v 35W MR16 60deg floods, ie low voltage, can't hang things off them, dirt cheap to make up via local elec wholesalers.

about £1.80 per fitting inc lamp & Tx (in quantities of 100) Takes around 3 hrs to make/wire a 3mtr run of 12 lights. And controlled by a PIR

[Ynot]

A while back - blimey - three years!! - I was looking for options and started this thread

I found some encapsulated low voltage 20w multi-units - pictures near the end of the thread.

Easy to install and very effective

[Davethsparky]

If your looking for cheep then why not just make them out besa boxes with batten holders on them. You can make them up to fit your requirements then. And they'll be easy to maintain.

[boswell]

Look at post 80 in this thread http://www.blue-room.org.uk/index.php?show...22381&st=40

[adam2]

If your looking for cheep then why not just make them out besa boxes with batten holders on them. You can make them up to fit your requirements then. And they'll be easy to maintain.

 

Lot to be said for that, plastic or metal conduit, BESA boxes, batten holders and suitable lamps.

Traditionly low power GLS lamps would have been used, warm white CFL globe lamps would be a suitable alternative.

An RCD would be a wise precaution for mains voltage within easy reach of actors.

 

Linear floursescent lamps might be worth considering, but be certain to use ones of very good colour rendering such as colour 930.

[Tomo]

warm white CFL globe lamps would be a suitable alternative.

No, they are not a suitable alternative.

 

These lights are for applying makeup - it is essential that makeup is applied under the same kind of light as it will be viewed on stage. If you use fluorescent, then the colour of the makeup seen in the mirror will not match the colour on stage.

 

This means it *must* be tungsten - preferably tungsten-halogen for efficiency and lifetime.

 

As an extreme example, if you've still got low-pressure sodium (orange) streetlights outside, go and look at different coloured things under that light.

 

The reason for this is that fluorescent lights don't produce a 'smooth' blackbody output like tungsten does - instead, they 'fake' it by using a small number of colours to produce light that 'looks' white to the eye when looking directly at them.

 

For example, if you mix just Blue and Yellow light, you get "White". (This is how the majority of White LEDs are made.)

But if you have a red object, it's not reflecting much of either colour so it's a duller colour - if it's pure enough, it might appear brown or even black under that light!

 

The new ETC Selador fixture lets you have a lot of fun with White, as you can make "white" in many different ways. You could have multiple 'whites' that all look very similar to the eye, but light the backdrop or costume in very different colours. (Time to scare the talent by making their costume change colour!)

 

Fluorescents use a mix of phosphors to try to come close to tungsten, but they all fall short.

 

Page 14 of this bit of sales lit from Osram shows this very well: (Direct link to PDF)

http://www.osram.co.uk/_global/pdf/Profess...ight_Colors.pdf

 

"940 LUMILUX DELUXE Cool White" is a particularly obvious example - there's no yellow there at all, and yet it has a CRI of >90.

"965 BIOLUX" is extremely good for a florry - I suspect it's quite expensive.

 

For reference, the blackbody curve is a continuous curve that looks something like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Blackbody-lg.png

[adam2]

I would agree that for a specialist application like this, that halogen or incandescent lamps would be better, however the O/P clearly states that they require NON halogen/incandescent lamps, which only really leaves flourescent or compact floursecent lighting.

 

The better colour flourescent lamps now have very good colour rendering,colour 930 being probably most suitable. These are indeed expensive, but are energy efficient and long lasting, and would appear to be the best option as incandescent has been ruled out.

[Bryson]

The problem is that the people specifying "no tungsten" obviously don't understand what the lights are for. Tungsten is the only acceptable source for this application. A CRI of 90 or 95 isnt good enough. If the fire hazard is unnacceptable, then it needs to be solved with a enclosure or cage. I'm not sure I'd be keen on people hanging their coats on cfls anyway...

 

This is one of those things where you have to get it right. If you cave to the pressure, they'll install cfls, the users will eventually complain (and refuse to use them) and you'll have to replace them. Save yourself the effort, time and environmental bad karma (for wastage) and get it right the first time.

 

The "powers that be" probably don't even know why using tungsten is required. They probably think that it was because tungsten bulbs were "normal". They're probably thinking that specifying cfls is the environmentally sound choice. Explain what Tomo explained above to them. That's why they employ specialists like us: to know this stuff. Don't just roll over if the spec you're given is wrong because of a simple misunderstanding. Explain why it's wrong. Just giving in is one of the reasons unusable buildings get built.

[stillwave]

The problem is that the people specifying "no tungsten" obviously don't understand what the lights are for... If the fire hazard is unnacceptable, then it needs to be solved with a enclosure or cage.

 

The "powers that be" probably don't even know why using tungsten is required. They probably think that it was because tungsten bulbs were "normal".

 

as I mentioned in my first post I understand about the colour rendition etc but was 'overruled' due to the fire safety fears... our building is rather unusual & 'quirky' as it is built into the side of a hill for a start (the stagehouse actually has a road above it!), so the 'quirks' may be part of the reason for the fire safety fears.

 

I'm all for getting it right 1st time, as it would probably be me & my line manager to sort out any mess out afterwards, surprisingly the 'no tungsten/halogen' comes from the general manager who used to be a pro actor for many years? before being a general manager in many venues for some 20+ years.

 

to the cage/enclosure idea the trouble there is how it would look in the end. thinking abstractly here... if we were to use tungsten / halogens & have them operated through timing switches what would we have as a maximum amount of time that

a) wouldn't piss off performers by constantly switching off halfway through applying their make-up &

b) wouldn't be a long enough period of time to allow a 15W golfball (or whatever wattage would be used) to ignite a garment?

 

I suppose another extension to the above idea is to have a bypass switch (secret key type) for the timing switch so to not annoy performers we deemed 'not a risk' is this a good idea or not? any thoughts?

 

because I'm sure that if we could comeup with a viable alternative to their fire safety issues but still use tungsten/halogens... I could avoid all this 'bad karma' (I have started recycling at home... does that count? ;) )

[Don Allen]

The Osram Energy Saver range bulb has a halogen lamp inside a glass envelope. There are other brands out now. These look like the old fashioned bulbs, use 30% less energy for the same light out and are cooler on the outside glass.

 

However your management have to factor the risk of a garment accidently falling onto a globe and catching fire, so I cannot see them avoiding having to use some guard to stop garments coming into contact with the globe.

 

There are a lot of flameproof Well Glass fittings including single lamp covers in metal and clear plastics so there will we a style asthetically suitable to management.

[Ynot]

Stillwave - did you take a look at the thread I linked to earlier?

Quite honestly I'd say this solves all of your problems.

Here's a direct link to a photo of our install a couple of years ago.

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j40/Ynot_01/05-10-06_2331.jpg

 

You'll see that the right hand side is close to the costume rail - the closest of any of our 4 dressing rooms.

Now whilst these lamps, even at a modest 20W, do get quite warm, they are pretty low profile and thus are out of the way of all but the most 'flouncy' costume. We have had a very minor incident wher something plastic was left against one of the lower lamps in another room and it melted, but that can happen with all but the coolest CFL, I'd say, so the risk is pretty much there whatever you use.