Zero 88 Orb

[smalljoshua]

Having just seen the Link in Peter's Sig, I had a look at the website for the Orb and this desk looks like a prominent contender to replace the old Strand 500 series consoles.

 

I for one can only hope to use one on a show. If it is anything like the other Zero 88 desks it should be a pleasure to use and nice and simple to learn.

 

Good work guys @ Zero 88.

 

Josh

[HobitLight]

Looks good to me! It seems to have a similar control interface as the other Zero88 desks (e.g, control wheels for fixture control) but in a theatre desk format.

 

Any ideas on cost?

 

Keep up the good work!

[tokm]

this desk looks like a prominent contender to replace the old Strand 500 series consoles.

Does it now..

 

So your a regular user of 520i's then are you as well as experienced in using a wide variety of other current consoles and thus able to make a statement such as that.. based on reading the spec alone?

 

Seem's I've been wasting my time over the years by actually bothering to try new kit (in a working situation) before forming a proper opinion on a product and being able to make definitive statements like that to other people ;) .

 

Based on the spec, I'd say it looks promising.. as the tag line suggests, something quite different to previous Z88 consoles. Perhaps if I get a chance to try one/get a proper demo, I'll be able to offer a more well rounded opinion.

 

Tom

[smalljoshua]

I did say looks.

 

Looks can be deceiving. Although looking at the spec it would seem that this is the market that the desk is aimed at.

 

I didn't say that everyone with a Strand should go out any buy one.

 

I just voiced my opinion on here in the hopes of creating a meaningful discussion about a new product.

 

Josh

[JDP]

Zero88 replacements for Strands... yer right. Zero88 have always made desks designed for colleges and schools, with a few rental companies stocking betpacks - but not many these days after Strand released the SD6. We'll see. But as Tom point out, Josh, its a pretty sweeping statement. I think if/when the 500 series gets replaced it will be done with ETC ION desks, Hog IIIs or grandMAs.

 

The desk outputs Artnet which is a goos start. But, I think its a bit too late. Unless Zero88 shock us with their price on it, I think its already been superseded by the grandMA Ultra Light or Road Hog Full Boar for a start.... In fact, I would go as far to say as its pointless releasing, unless the price is really, really cheap.

 

Sorry, Josh, I think this is a typical story of students getting excited about a Zero88 desk being launched. I can't seem to see a proper thread about the Grandma 2 when it came out.

 

 

EDIT: 200 pallets?! Both MA and Hog have 999 if I remember rightly. 2 DMX outs, immediately the Full Boar had p!ssed on that, or the the MA Utra Light puts up a fierce fight. 200 groups, again Hog and MA can do 999. 200 macros, again, MA and Hog have well over that 999 again. No Screens inbuilt!! Thats bad.

 

So, this desk should rightly be around 1/5 of the grandMA Ultralight minus one touch screen at say £450 then? That makes the desk about £1500 to buy, I think not.

[mac.calder]

Hmm - TBH, I think it's specs are a bit limited - maybe for smaller theatres, school type theatres - those too large for a Jester, but not requiring a full size console maybe, but I think that you will quickly run into walls with only 200 of each sort of pallet, 200 groups etc - especially with media servers and LED's (which it mentions as one of it's design specs).

 

Personally I think that if this desk

 

Designed to provide innovative control of the latest LED, Moving Head and Video System technology

 

they need to look at adding a power of 10 to those numbers.

 

That and looking at the number of universes... May fall a bit short for lots of LED work.

 

Many shows with semi decent budgets these days are running well past 4 universes... Maybe z88 isn't looking at that sort of marketplace - I don't know, and TBH I would like to hear 'from the horses mouth' exactly where they are aiming at with this desk...

 

4 universes is (IMO) the new "12 channel 2 preset desk"

 

--ps - looks like an external power supply... Yuk...

 

--pps - not trying to sound like I am against it from the start... just raising some points.

[Nick S]

Yeah - the Congo Jr offers basically three times the number of outputs, and that's less than the price of a Frog2 (at least in the US). I don't know how Zero88 are going to be able to compete on price with better and more capable desks.

[tom_the_LD]

Looks nice I have to say. Will it be at PLASA this year, Peter?

 

EDIT: Just seen on the website that it WILL be at PLASA.

[steve h]

I was fortunate enough at ABTT this year to be having a demo on light converse by Peter Kirkup when a guy from (I believe it was) avo came across and had a look at the orb preview they had set up. Lets just say I stuck around to see what happened ;)

 

From what I picked up the orb is designed primarily for theatres, as previously stated which is aimed for roughly the £6k mark. It has DMX and ethernet, but is also able to be RDM compatable (I believe that is the right way to put it...basically it isnt built in...but could be!) It uses the numberpad interface which so many people are use to (1 thru 10 etc!) and the standard zero88 trackwheels instead of normal wheels (something which I much prefer and find much easier and quicker to use!)

 

The only other information I can remember is that, (to the disappointment of the avo guy) there is nothing under the rubber arm rests!

 

am looking forward to see the final product at plasa

 

Steve

 

disclaimer...please remember this is conversation I stood next too a couple of months ago. the product wasnt finished and so things could easily be changed since then...mods please feel free to remove/edit if too much hearsay!

 

PS...I prefer the new black from the pic on the orb website than the grey colour at abtt :P

[gareth]

I'm trying not to let the fact that I'm far from being a fan of Zero88 desks to colour my thoughts on this one ...

 

It looks like an interesting product, and one which I'd like to have a look at at some point. But just going by the facts and figures on the website, I wouldn't say it's a replacement for the 500-series. Bear in mind that many 500-series users are what you might call 'big-time' venues and companies (RSC, NT, BBC, West End musicals, etc.), I can't exactly see the Orb being embraced in some of those environments. Having said that, though, it does look as though it might have some potential for smaller installations which might previously have considered a 300 or a 520.

 

Apart from anything else, by the looks of things ETC are really putting their stamp on the market when it comes to what people are choosing to replace their tired and aging Strand consoles. Congo, Eos and Ion seems to be getting everywhere these days - major hire companies are replacing their 300/500-series rental fleets with ETC product, and even die-hard Strand customers like TV studios are making the switch to ETC (London Studios have just replaced their Galaxies with Congos).

[peter]

First of all I'd like to say a huge thank-you for everyone taking their time to post their thoughts here - as you all know Zero 88 are comitted to listening to their users and as such I've gone through your points below. Please feel free to keep the comments coming!

 

From what I picked up the orb is designed primarily for theatres, as previously stated which is aimed for roughly the £6k mark. It has DMX and ethernet, but is also able to be RDM compatable (I believe that is the right way to put it...basically it isnt built in...but could be!) It uses the numberpad interface which so many people are use to (1 thru 10 etc!) and the standard zero88 trackwheels instead of normal wheels (something which I much prefer and find much easier and quicker to use!)

Steve's pretty much hit the nail on the head - we're aiming the desk to be a numeric version of our previous desks, with specific features aimed at making life easier for theatre users.

 

Zero88 have always made desks designed for colleges and schools, with a few rental companies stocking betpacks - but not many these days after Strand released the SD6.

An interesting point of view, but unfortunately one that is, in all honesty, quite dated. I'd encourage you to come and take a look at our products at PLASA and see just what we can do these days - we've moved a long way since the Sirius and Alcoras!

 

The desk outputs Artnet which is a good start. But, I think its a bit too late. Unless Zero88 shock us with their price on it, I think its already been superseded by the grandMA Ultra Light or Road Hog Full Boar for a start.... In fact, I would go as far to say as its pointless releasing, unless the price is really, really cheap.

This desk isn't intended to be competing with GrandMA or a Road Hog. It's specifically aimed at theatres and as such has many features which theatre users would love, whilst not offering some GrandMA/RoadHog like functions that the Frog 2 and Leap Frog 48/96 cater for.

 

200 pallets?! Both MA and Hog have 999 if I remember rightly. 2 DMX outs, immediately the Full Boar had p!ssed on that, or the the MA Utra Light puts up a fierce fight. 200 groups, again Hog and MA can do 999. 200 macros, again, MA and Hog have well over that 999 again. No Screens inbuilt!! Thats bad.

The Palettes can be used to store any attribute type you like, so theoretically there are 800 palettes of any type, at present. However, the 200 palettes is purely a software limit so can be easily changed should it become an issue. As for internal screens, the main competitors for this desk don't offer internal touch screens - I think you're seeing this desk at a very different market point to where it is intended.

 

That and looking at the number of universes... May fall a bit short for lots of LED work.

 

Many shows with semi decent budgets these days are running well past 4 universes... Maybe z88 isn't looking at that sort of marketplace - I don't know, and TBH I would like to hear 'from the horses mouth' exactly where they are aiming at with this desk...

As I've said above, this desk is specifically aimed to bring the modern control philosophies offers by the likes of GrandMAs, Hog3, Frog 2, into the theatre control desk market. It's not intended to control the Olympics or Eurovision song contest, but is intended to offer the flexibility and powerful software features already available in the live-events markets to the theatre control market, at a very desirable price.

 

4 universes is (IMO) the new "12 channel 2 preset desk"

Believe me, we still sell enough 12 channel 2 preset desks! However, your point has been taken on board... Orb has a powerful hardware base underneath it and expanding the universe count is not outside the realms of possibility.

 

--ps - looks like an external power supply... Yuk...

This is always going to be a sticking point, however bear in mind that with an external power supply:

• You can carry a spare in the flightcase
  
• You can swap the power supply in seconds
  
• You can replace the power supply without opening the desk hardware, therefore not requiring a service technician on site
  

 

Looks nice I have to say. Will it be at PLASA this year, Peter?

Indeed, we'll be at PLASA - stand A80 - please do all pop along and get a full demo - we're more than happy to hear feedback and as the site says, we're really hoping that you, the users, can mold what the desk becomes, and feedback like this topic really is invaluable. If anyone has comments they'd like to raise in person or privately, please feel free to contact me off-forum.

 

It looks like an interesting product, and one which I'd like to have a look at at some point. But just going by the facts and figures on the website, I wouldn't say it's a replacement for the 500-series. Bear in mind that many 500-series users are what you might call 'big-time' venues and companies (RSC, NT, BBC, West End musicals, etc.), I can't exactly see the Orb being embraced in some of those environments. Having said that, though, it does look as though it might have some potential for smaller installations which might previously have considered a 300 or a 520.

I'd be interested to know more about why you think Orb wouldn't be embraced in those environments, Gareth - we've taken a lot of pause for thought based on our previous products and have brought the design a lot further than anything you've seen from Zero 88 before. Perhaps we could sit down and go through the desk at PLASA?

[gareth]

I'd be interested to know more about why you think Orb wouldn't be embraced in those environments, Gareth - we've taken a lot of pause for thought based on our previous products and have brought the design a lot further than anything you've seen from Zero 88 before. Perhaps we could sit down and go through the desk at PLASA?

If I'm able to get to PLASA, I'll definitely come and have a look - as I said, it looks like a desk that shows promise. It might even be the first Zero88 desk that I actually like! I'm definitely not going to decide what I think about it until I've had a good look at it.

 

But just for a moment, take off your Zero88 salesman hat, and consider, realistically, whether there might ever be a time when you read about the RSC installing a Zero88 Orb in their main house in Stratford, or BBC Resources installing one into TC1, or an Orb being selected as the desk of choice for the next mammoth Disney west-end musical ... Given that the very first post in this thread speculates on whether the Orb might be a contender to replace 500-series consoles (which have been used successfully in all the environments mentioned - well, OK, not actually in TC1, but they are in use in TV studio situations!), that's kind of the point that I was making.

[mac.calder]

The desk outputs Artnet which is a good start. But, I think its a bit too late. Unless Zero88 shock us with their price on it, I think its already been superseded by the grandMA Ultra Light or Road Hog Full Boar for a start.... In fact, I would go as far to say as its pointless releasing, unless the price is really, really cheap.

This desk isn't intended to be competing with GrandMA or a Road Hog. It's specifically aimed at theatres and as such has many features which theatre users would love, whilst not offering some GrandMA/RoadHog like functions that the Frog 2 and Leap Frog 48/96 cater for.

 

Hmmm... But surely one must consider that the GrandMA and Hog have all been embraced in the theatre world - and offer the ability to be operated in both the traditional theatre sense and the rock and roll sense. So it it a quite valid price point comparison.

 

200 pallets?! Both MA and Hog have 999 if I remember rightly. 2 DMX outs, immediately the Full Boar had p!ssed on that, or the the MA Utra Light puts up a fierce fight. 200 groups, again Hog and MA can do 999. 200 macros, again, MA and Hog have well over that 999 again. No Screens inbuilt!! Thats bad.

The Palettes can be used to store any attribute type you like, so theoretically there are 800 palettes of any type, at present. However, the 200 palettes is purely a software limit so can be easily changed should it become an issue. As for internal screens, the main competitors for this desk don't offer internal touch screens - I think you're seeing this desk at a very different market point to where it is intended.

 

Most desks have pallet masks which allow you to do that... so your 800 is against 4,000 plus .

 

Screens are a valid point too I feel - because whilst you're not aiming for a touch screen controller (which is fair enough), how well can one operate the desk without adding screens? Because I can operate even the smallest GrandMA or Hog range console without adding any monitors... Not only that, but my monitors on a Hog or GMA go further because they have view buttons built around it - more information available quickly... So if this desk needs a monitor for true usability, then it's true price point needs to be raised a bit.

 

And what "main competitors" are we talking about?

 

4 universes is (IMO) the new "12 channel 2 preset desk"

Believe me, we still sell enough 12 channel 2 preset desks! However, your point has been taken on board... Orb has a powerful hardware base underneath it and expanding the universe count is not outside the realms of possibility.

 

I should hope so! I love my small desks...

 

--ps - looks like an external power supply... Yuk...

This is always going to be a sticking point, however bear in mind that with an external power supply:

• You can carry a spare in the flightcase
  
• You can swap the power supply in seconds
  
• You can replace the power supply without opening the desk hardware, therefore not requiring a service technician on site
  

 

In response:

• External power supplies (especially ones thrown in an out of roadcases) tend to have problems at the connector end - iec's are a dime a dozen
  
• External power supplies are often more expensive (unless we are talking radio shack wall wort style PSU's) than an internal PSU
  
• External PSU's are not as tidy
  
• A well built chasis will allow a power supply to be swapped out in minutes by any competent tech
  

 

Dunno - I just find them tacky.

 

 

I certainly want to have a look at the desk etc, maybe there is the gap in the market that just does not exist in Australia to my knowledge... Dunno... hope to hear more.

[gareth]

--ps - looks like an external power supply... Yuk...

This is always going to be a sticking point, however bear in mind that with an external power supply:

• You can carry a spare in the flightcase
  
• You can swap the power supply in seconds
  
• You can replace the power supply without opening the desk hardware, therefore not requiring a service technician on site
  

Here's a radical idea - instead of using a PSU that you expect to fail, and which you expect the user to need to carry a spare for and to have to swap it out 'in seconds', make the PSU internal (which I much prefer) and make it reliable enough so that it won't be expected to fail.

[JDP]

Peter. The point I was making about the grandMA and Hog 3 etc is that they are utilised in (West End) theatre all the time. I am not a theatre expert, but for many rock n roll tours/one-offs we pop into West End theatres, and a LOT of them seem to have grandMAs or Hogs as a backbone for Moving Light (and some generic) control, or have Strand 500 series.

 

Regarding my comments about Zero88. It may be slightly exaggerated, but not out-dated. When on my 'days off' and I work for other (big, well known) rental companies, the first choice for a 6ch dimmer is something Strand or Jands FP12s. Admittedly the (small) conference companies buy the Betapacks but thats not really the point I was making. Again, install racks, I like the Chilli racks, but all of the places I go have Strand, ETC Sensor or Avolites I series for permanent installations. One the desk front, apart from Edinburgh Fringe (we all know the deal there), and a few small regional theaters, what PROFESSIONAL theatres or events in the UK, used by over 18 year olds does the Frog range do, specifically?

 

Sorry a rant, but I am fed up of manufacturers blowing their own trumpets, and not backing up what they are saying with good solid evidence of product use.

 

likes of GrandMAs, Hog3, Frog 2,

hmmm. Not sure about anyone else, but this is the first time I have ever seen a Frog 2 in the same sentence/conversation as those two desks.

 

Also, Peter, do tell. Whats the RRP for this new desk?

 

For reference, reason I chose MA Ultralight is specifically because it is a 2 universe desk, that has a similar amount of playbacks, has Artnet, can have additional screens etc, and what I am guessing to be roughly the same RRP as this new desk.

 

Comment about external PSU's is spot on. For theatre touring, or 'touring'/venue moving work of any kind, its something along with desk covers likely to get lost. Theres a funny story about a single DP2000 getting lost/stolen from a tour we did a few years back, which caused a few issues, but thats for another time, and it wasn't my dimmer land it got stolen from

 

PPS: Peter, been to the Zero88 stand. Used Zero88 desks in the field, Frog 2 included. Have I missed the point? My comments above/before are generated around my use of these products.

 

PPPPPPPPPPPS: Peter, what do you see to be this desks competitor. This comment based around your comment about internal touch screens. Unless I have missed something the majority of desks have internal screens (touch or not, mostly touch) these days. Which is kind of Mac's comments seconded, with view buttons, touch screens. Same with the Fat Frog, its impossible to operate without a screen! I know its not a touch screen based desk, but is this desk going to be as awful and non-existent to operate without an external screen as the Fat Frog?