School installation spec

[KindredHyperion]

Edit: I just realised how long this post is.. feel free to skim :)

 

Before I say anything else, I know there have been a million other threads on this kind of topic. But please hear me out before drawing too near to that tempting 'close' button (or is it called lock? It's a long time since I last moderated an IPB forum. But I digress).

 

For those of you who don't know me - I haven't been on this forum for a while now - I'm year 13 at a foundation school (which I think means the estate is owned by the governors rather than the LEA) in southwest London.

 

As you may have guessed, the reason I'm posting is that the management, having spent umpteen thousand pounds a few years ago on a very fancy AV system, have finally decided to invest some money in lighting. And since I've lit basically every school production for the past four odd years, they have essentially asked me to write a draft spec for the installation, to eventually be tendered out to firms for supply and installation. I hope therefore that no-one will be too offended if I ask for a little feedback from the Blue Room Brain on my thoughts so far.

 

The venue is a fairly typical school hall, (very) approximately 10m x 20m, no fixed seating, accommodating about 550 at full capacity (i.e. people crammed in around the edge) but realistically about 300 for the average performance, used for various typical school-type events.

 

The work is going to include installation of three phase power and a raised control gallery at the rear of the hall which I’m hoping will also facilitate a significant amount of storage space underneath.

 

Now for the bit that my spec will cover. I’m proposing that the existing (ancient and probably dangerous) wiring and IWBs be removed and replaced. Hard power and DMX points on each bar plus DMX points strategically positioned around the hall. Then probably something like 48-way Chilli dimming.

 

The interesting bit though, is that I have been told that one of the aims of the project is to eliminate as far as possible the need to hire in the future, and I’m wondering how realistic this is. It’s true that for the most demanding event of the year, the 6th form run musical, we normally end up with the same-ish base setup: 6 macs and 10 odd scrollers; this is actually very flexible. But I’m not sure how well these will keep in the long term (particularly the scrollers).

 

The main problem has always been access – few people are qualified and available to climb ladders, so for the majority of events lighting just doesn’t happen, and IMHO concerts just don’t have the same wow factor lit in florescent strip lighting.

 

So my current plan is to get some macs and colour changers of some sort, along with some more generics, come up with a flexible base rig which will stay untouched for most of the year, and then look at a wall switch control system in addition to a control desk proper so that the system can be used for classical type concerts and the like without the need for an operator.

 

So does anyone have any experience with such a setup in a school (or any other) context? Any thoughts, comments or suggestions would be very welcome.

 

A

[Bobbsy]

Oh dear! I think we may have been here before. As a sound specialist, I'm not going to begin to recommend any specific lighting gear but I'm going to take advantage of the time difference to dive in with a few general thoughts before the gang crawl out of their pits on a Sunday morning.

 

First, as a student, be very certain you are clear and honest about your role in working on this project. You may well have been asked to advise on a wish list but anything you come up with will certainly go through various layers of management before anything is purchased.

 

Second, your post is a bit light on detail about what the hall is used for week in, week out. You mention concerts but it's not clear if these are official "school" events or unofficial entertainment outside of the actual curriculum. You also mention an annual musical, saying that this needs to rent in a variety of Macs and scrollers. Is this really a "need" or is this your choice of "toys" to play with. Surely a production of "We Will Rock You" needs moving lights far more than if you did, say, Guys and Dolls. What about other users of the hall: straight plays, speeches and assemblies, that sort of thing. What you spec needs to be the best compromise for the total use, not just flashy lighting for the "fun" bits.

 

Third, you mention the goal is to eliminate rentals as much as possible. If you're being honest in your advice perhaps you should tell them they have this wrong. Movers take maintenance (expensive) and lots of "care and feeding". If the need is only a week or two a year, financially the best bet it to have a good conventional rig and rent for the times you DO need them.

 

Finally, you are justifying the purchase of scrollers and movers because of restrictions on working at height. Is this really a genuine solution? As noted above, moving lights need maintenance, lamp changes, etc. so you're certainly not eliminating all need to work at height. Indeed, a well-planned conventional rig, with a good "general" focus and colour selection, probably needs less regular access. Between considering this--and suggesting the school management read the very informative BR topic about the REAL legal situation on minors working at height--maybe you should be advising a different direction.

 

Anyway, my tuppence (or two Australian cents) worth.

 

Bob

[Just Some Bloke]

There are a few more details we're going to need to know here.

 

Firstly, I'm assuming there's a stage, though at first I was thinking there may not be as you seemed to be describing an "in-the-round" setup at one point ("people crammed in around the edge"). As you didn't go on to mention different layouts, I imaging there is a stage and performances always happen there and there only?

 

Secondly, as Bob says, what else is the stage used for apart from the annual musical and classical concerts? If that's all you do I can see no need for movers and scrollers.

 

On that last point, if the annual musical is the only thing you need anything out of the ordinary for, then don't forget that the reason Lighting Designers exist rather than just every theatre having pretty much the same fixed rig, is that every show is different. When someone asks me to light a show I don't say "this is a list of what equipment I'll need" before I've seen a script, chatted to the director and designer or watched a rehearsal. One show might need scrollers and Macs, another might need Pars and blinders, a third might need solid basic washes made out of fresnels on stage and profiles FOH. This is why on the Blue Room we often recommend hiring for schools. That way you hire exactly what you need each year and every show looks different.

 

I do like your idea of

a flexible base rig which will stay untouched for most of the year, and then look at a wall switch control system in addition to a control desk proper so that the system can be used for classical type concerts and the like without the need for an operator.

That sounds like an excellent idea. I also like your idea of putting a solid infrastructure in place: lots of hanging positions, 15A sockets, DMX sockets, hard power, and dimmer channels. The one place you could allow the school to save on the hire budget is by getting a desk that is overspec'd most of the time but means that whatever you hire for the musical (or whatever) the desk will control it. Just make sure it's easy to use. For example, I recently advised a school on an install and specified an ETC Smartfade ML even though they have no movers of their own. The difference in cost will soon be made back by not having to hire a desk every time they do hire fixtures. When I trained them on the desk, I only looked at generics so they could get used to the desk first, telling them to get back in touch with me when they first hire fixtures and I'll come back and finish the training when they've got minds that already know the desk solidly and movers on which to try out the added features of the desk. Keep it simple, but give LDs infrastructre they can add to.

 

FInally, remember it's much easier for the school next year to add a couple of extra Source Four Juniors if they find they didn't get enough, than for them to put an extra IWB in. Get the basics right now, hire the extras when you need them and leave something everyone can use. As you say yourself, a good basic top wash for classical concerts that can be turned on by pressing one switch on the wall would be an excellent legacy to leave when you move on.

 

Enjoy the challnge! :)

[gareth]

Having skimmed through the first post in this topic (will read the rest later when I have more time), I'll just say what we tend to tell schools when we're putting together specs and quotes for installations like this.

 

Rather than fritter away money on moving lights and scrollers that might get used two or thre times a year, and even then only if there's someone around who knows *how* to use them (you're about to leave the school, and for all we know there's probably no-one else there who knows what a moving light is, let alone how to program one), it's far better to spend the bulk of the budget for a project like this on ensuring that the infrastructure (dimmers, patch circuits, outlets, IWBs, hanging positions, DMX distribution, power supply, basic generic lantern stock, etc.) is as good as it can possibly be.

 

This then allows the school to look at renting in the 'fancy bits' of the rig on a production-by-production basis, with the benefits that they'll not be saddled with equipment which isn't really suitable for what they're trying to achieve for a particular production but which they feel they have to use because of the significant capital outlay that was made to procure it in the first place. There's also the question of maintenance and servicing - moving lights and such-like need regular maintenance to be able to perform at their best, and the skills base required to be able to do this 'in-house' simply isn't there in the vast majority of schools.

[KindredHyperion]

First, as a student, be very certain you are clear and honest about your role in working on this project.

I am. Trying to be, anyway. All I can tell you is the facts of what has happened so far which is that the head has handed me the spec from the first company they got in (far from ideal, no DMX wiring, non-ML Jester for control, etc) and asked me to write an equivalent.

 

I imaging there is a stage and performances always happen there and there only?

Yes, that's right, sorry if I was unclear on this. There is a stage at one end and the rest of the hall is clear, with chairs/tables put out as and when.

 

Second, your post is a bit light on detail about what the hall is used for week in, week out.

Yeah, sorry about that, I think I originally went into a bit more detail but then edited some out to cut down on length! :)

 

In a typical year, there are *thinks*

• 7 'official' (i.e. music dept run) concerts, 3 classical but with some jazz, world and rock music in there as well. All currently lit with florries.
  
• 6th form musical
  
• The 'School Play' + 3-4 other smaller student-run plays
  
• 3x presentation evenings
  
• A few other bits.. the odd staff function, and who knows what the students will dream up next...
  

Day to day, the hall is also used for 3 assemblies a week (550 odd kids), talks, lectures, workshops and (uh oh) EXAMS. While there is, I believe, an idea to reduce this and make it into more of a performance space, currently the space is taken completely out of action for about 5 weeks each summer and filled with exam desks.

 

You also mention an annual musical, saying that this needs to rent in a variety of Macs and scrollers. Is this really a "need" or is this your choice of "toys" to play with.

This is due to a number of factors, none of which being 'because they're cool'.

1. In our current setup we have about 12 working dimmer channels. Similarly about a quarter of the circuits don't work. Rigging too many individually dimmable lanterns isn't really an option so I use the scrollers and Macs to compensate.
   
2. Access. Focussing properly has never really been an option, due to things like WAH restrictions, etc etc. If I'm lucky I get an hour or so of schoolkeeper time and have to do the best I can with it.
   
3. This is a student-run production. The production process is normally a mess and the technical meeting (normally becomes progressively less and less technical as the directors start discussing other things) is normally left far too late. Therefore a lot of the lighting work is done on-the-fly so to speak.
   

Movers take maintenance (expensive) and lots of "care and feeding".

I'm not sure on this one but I suspect that the school would be willing to get someone in twice a year to do this. I think it's something to do with budgets...

 

I would finally add that I'm by no means set on this. I'm just thinking aloud here to come up with the best long term sustainable solution.

[bruce]

Day to day, the hall is also used for 3 assemblies a week (550 odd kids), talks, lectures, workshops and (uh oh) EXAMS. While there is, I believe, an idea to reduce this and make it into more of a performance space, currently the space is taken completely out of action for about 5 weeks each summer and filled with exam desks.

 

Remember this is a school. The exams are actually the most important things that happen in the venue! Whatever happens, don't forget that! The lighting (and sound!) must be able to accomodate them. I know of one venue (a converted church) which has specially-installed "exam lights" - they don't look "dramatic", but they're intended to provide even lighting to allow the kiddies to read the exam papers...

 

Also, I am (painfully) aware of one space in a brand new school - a dance studio that was intended to double-up as an exam venue. It worked fine for the first few exams there, but when they came to do a french "listening" exam, they realised that the acoustics were so bad that most of the kids couldn't make out the dialogue on the CD, due to the reverb and positioning of the speakers. I said "painfully aware", because my daughter was sitting that exam. Results due next week!

Access. Focussing properly has never really been an option, due to things like WAH restrictions, etc etc. If I'm lucky I get an hour or so of schoolkeeper time and have to do the best I can with it.

Movers take maintenance (expensive) and lots of "care and feeding".

I'm not sure on this one but I suspect that the school would be willing to get someone in twice a year to do this. I think it's something to do with budgets...

You may well find that the cost of "getting someone in twice a year to do this", plus a few spare lamps, is around the same, or even higher, than a fortnight's hire. If you hire rather than buy, you save the capital cost, you spend the same recurrent costs, and you don't end up in 5 years time with a pile of obsolete, irreparable fixtures. It's not a simple equation - you need to do the sums carefully.

[Bobbsy]

Bruce makes the point on rental vs. purchase more eloquently than I managed, but there's one other factor to add: the capital budget saved by not purchasing the expensive lights can be ploughed into infrastructure and/or more lanterns for the conventional rig.

 

Bob

[JDP]

One thing to think about when you say about the hot power going up on the bars to think about...

 

It would be far more logical and easier to have all the bars on 15A or 16A whatever preference you have, and have these going to a patchbay in dimmer land. This would enable you to patch whatever you want wherever you want, rather than have hot power or dimmer power stuck in areas you don't want/need them when you need the opposite. Something like Chilli racks which are hard wired from memory would be worth terminating to something like a weiland patch bay. http://andolite.co.uk/wielandpanel5xsocapex.jpg Something like that, without the socas, which is then hard wired to your bars.. A lot of venues seem to go for the 15A with 1M cable type bays, which to be honest will get really messy, so those Weiland ones are the ones to go for I would say..

 

With DMX distro. I think it would be advisable to look at having a socket on the end of the bar, with perhaps both a 5 and a 3 on it. Using a similar idea to the above, these would come out on a patchbay and be plugged into DMX buffers. Usually whats nice is to have XLR5s coming out just underneath the buffer and using something like a 10 - 15cm patch cord to make it really neat.

 

Lastly, equipment wise. Like others I would advise building a good stock of generics. Source 4 Junior Profiles, Source 4 Pars, Selecon 1KW fresnels you can't go wrong with. Then, personally, I would leave the moving lights for rental. It is however important to make sure you can do hot power and data distro 'in house' rather than having to run lots of cables all over the shop if/when you rent movers. Seriously, spend all your moving light money on doing proper data and power distro and get yourself ready for when you rent the kit in. With money left you could then buy some scrollers.

 

I seriously would NOT buy moving lights, regardless of the budgets, even if you could afford them all in - a school to be maintaining, fixing etc isn't going to happen...and after a year there going to be clogged up with dust, grime etc and take a LOT of cleaning and fixing them. Thats IF they do et looked at. Theres also the chance that being a school the person who does 'look' or 'clean' them will have b******tted their way into doing it and will probably not have an ounce of an idea of what there doing - and break them beyond repair.

[Andrew C]

One thing to think about when you say about the hot power going up on the bars to think about...

 

It would be far more logical and easier to have all the bars on 15A or 16A whatever preference you have, and have these going to a patchbay in dimmer land.

Whilst I fully understand where JDP is coming from, and have spent many years working this way; I'd avoid it if possible. It adds another layer of numbers to think about. For newbie operators to have to do the mental "That lantern is plugged into socket 32, which is patched to dimmer 76 which is on control channel 16" just throws them. I've seen it enough to know.

 

As the others have said, spend money on infrastructure. Get enough dimmers for the number of outlets you need, and a desk that will control at least that number of dimmers plus a handful of movers/scrollers later.

[the kid]

What I'm going to agree with most of what JDP has said. The 15a patch is brilliant I have one, I think it was some how a cost saving by the college for IWB sockets v's dimmer channels (I have 50-60 sockets and only 48 channels possible)

 

The one thing I am not keen 100% on is the 5 and 3 DMX on bars I have 5 DMX in's on bars and 3 outs, one backstage one in the box and one FOH. If I need 3 DMX I use a converter. I would rather have a couple of DMX in's on the floor though.

 

Which brings to the next point - dimmers, I have 48 channels BUT I could use 66 IF I wanted using beta packs, these have proven invaluable for floor lighting as I have only 4 floor sockets.

 

Lighting wise I would susspect if the school was to sed out "we want 10 profiles that are good and cheep" selecon acclaims would be them. And there is nothing wrong with them at all.

[smalljoshua]

I personally don't think a Patch is the way to go.

 

When you factor in the cost of a patch for say 48 ways of dimming but 60 sockets the cost of the patch bays sometimes is the same as just adding another 12 channels of dimming.

 

Also I think the Chilli Dimmers are just what you need as they can have the switch like control from the chilli panels and are also nice and compact compared to the same number of dimmers with patch.

 

As for a desk there are a lot of options out there but IMO for 48 Channels of dimming with future expandability and in a school environment A Jester ML48 would be perfect.

 

Full DMX distro is the name of the day with one point each end of each bar and some at floor level and in the dimmer room.

 

Also if you have problems with access how about budgeting some money for a tallescope (SP?) and training for a member of staff from the appropriate department.

 

Josh

[Shaggy]

I'm going to dissent here and say that I see moving lights here not as a toy but as a valid solution to a working at height problem. As I understand it, currently students are not allowed to use any form of access to get access to the bars and no adult help is available the majority of the time as the lighting is not seen as a priority. There are 3 solutions to this problem. One is the purchase of access equipment that a working practice can be built around to allow students to access the rig. This depends on the school but who knows how probable it is. The second is the installation of winch bars which allows bounce focusing, but this is going to be very expensive. The third is moving lights, which will also be expensive.

 

Without access, any form of conventional lighting will have more chance to be wasted as the lights will be pointing in the wrong directions, have the wrong/burnt out gels in or have blown lamps. It is true that moving lights will require some maintenance, however lamp changes are reasonably predictable and a rig that mainly stays static will require little expensive maintenance, there are plenty of movers spending time in smoky nightclubs that work ok with less maintenance than the original poster is proposing. Yes movers make a bit of noise, but I'd rather have a bit of noise in a theatre show than a rock gig lit with fluorescents. There may be no one currently able to use moving lights but the original poster, but I imagine plenty of students are interested and in the right environment could learn.

 

What it's going to come down to is cost, and a spec incorporating say 4 movers is not going to be any better than a spec with none. If I were to go down the moving head route, for that sized room I would stick with 250w ranges. On the Foh bars I would put a number of profiles with an Iris substitute such as the Mac250 Entour which can be used for specials, and some sort of wash fixtures used to wash the whole stage. On stage I would choose a Upstage and Mid stage Bar with a couple more Profiles on each and again some sort of wash fixture. Would this spec create award winning lighting? Course not, but it would provide a rig able to be used more easily than a conventional rig no one can touch and it would look better than fluorescents. At no point would I purchase scrollers as they are far less reliable (in my experience) than movers.

[smalljoshua]

As I understand it, currently students are not allowed to use any form of access to get access to the bars and no adult help is available the majority of the time as the lighting is not seen as a priority.

Joe. Please see the very informative Topic in The Next Generation about working at height.

 

Without access, any form of conventional lighting will have more chance to be wasted as the lights will be pointing in the wrong directions, have the wrong/burnt out gels in or have blown lamps.

Generics may at one point or another, in their life in a school, have burnt out gels or blown lamps but they are both cheaper and easier to repair than any fault with a moving head, including a new lamp.

 

a rig that mainly stays static will require little expensive maintenance

Any maintenance is expensive for a school and will always be more expensive than maintenance on a generic. See my point above about Lamps.

 

there are plenty of movers spending time in smoky nightclubs that work OK with less maintenance than the original poster is proposing

True but when they go wrong there is either a properly trained professional or an outside company with a maintenance contract who knows how to deal with them.

 

I imagine plenty of students are interested and in the right environment could learn

You'd be suprised in the lack of people who want to get involved and are responsible enough to use moving head properly.

 

On the Foh bars I would put a number of profiles with an Iris substitute such as the Mac250 Entour which can be used for specials, and some sort of wash fixtures used to wash the whole stage. On stage I would choose a Upstage and Mid stage Bar with a couple more Profiles on each and again some sort of wash fixture. Would this spec create award winning lighting?

No it would create a rig with incredibly complex and hard to use lights for a school.

 

it would provide a rig able to be used more easily than a conventional rig no one can touch

No it wouldn't moving heads are tricky to program on smaller desks like the ones in the O/P's likely budget. Anyone can move a couple of faders and make some lights work but doing that with the wheels on movers is not a good idea at the best of times.

 

Just some of my thoughts about Joe (Shaggy)'s post

 

Josh

[KindredHyperion]

Remember this is a school. The exams are actually the most important things that happen in the venue!

They've recently done up the sports hall with (I believe) a view to it eventually replacing the hall as the main exam venue. It's massive and they can seat about 350 people in there. Very surreal. But I digress.

 

I do see what you mean about the costs of maintaining movers vs hiring. Something I will look into once term starts.. quotes from companies for maintenance, etc.

 

Re: patching. I'm not sure I'm so keen on it either. We have a hard patch at the moment and it's a nightmare, gets tangled within weeks and takes forever to sort out. I'd rather just go for enough channels of dimming to cover all circuits and soft patch at the desk. And I think having say two 16A hot power sockets at either end of each IWB should be enough for most needs.

 

Finally on desks. I don't want to open another 'which desk' discussion here cause Jarrett knows we have enough of them already. But I really (really, really, really) don't want to spec a Jester for this. I just don't like them. I'm more inclined to agree with JSB and go with something ETC... any one recommend any of the new stuff in their range?

 

A concurrent post has been automatically merged from this point on.

 

Argh people replying faster than I can type/read here!

Just one thing to add: budget is not so much of an issue here. The school is willing to pay for a solution that will work. Which is why I'd agree with the others and overspec a desk which will handle anything I throw at it.

[gareth]

DMX connectors are not 3-pin. It's that simple. The fact that some manufacturers couldn't grasp that fact several years ago is irrelevant - all new fixtures have 5-pin connectors (even if some of them also feature 3-pin XLRs as a 'legacy' connector to allow easier integration with older systems), and there's absolutely no excuse for incorporating 3-pin XLRs as a DMX connector in a new installation.