Legal age of working at height

[quinn11]

A theatre group have been asking to rig for them for a while now but I'm unsure I heard somewhere there was a law about the age.

Does anyone know the age you have to be to go up a scaff tower and work if there is one?

And if there is what can people under that age do?

 

Cady

[Stewart Newlands]

Please look at:

 

HSE Free leaflet: Construction Information sheet 10 - Scaffold Towers

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/cis10.pdf

 

Please also see:

 

http://www.pasma.co.uk/

 

PASMA: Formed in 1974, and comprising the major manufacturers of alloy access towers in the UK, the Association's original objectives were to promote the safe use of alloy access towers and to promote the interests of its members to the regulatory and standards authorities. Membership of the Association was confined to manufacturers only, who at that time represented the principal suppliers to the market for both sales and hire.

 

In the early 1980s, the Association devised its PASMA Training Course for users of alloy towers, now universally acknowledged as the industry standard, and so commenced a long history of skills training to make the use of access towers as safe as possible by producing many thousands of competent users.

 

The PASMA Code of Practice, which has come to be the definitive access tower reference document for managers, supervisors, health & safety professionals and users alike, and which has been completely updated to incorporate the requirements of the Work at Height Regulations 2005, was also first produced in the 1980s.

 

http://www.pasma.co.uk/public/code-of-practice.jsp

 

It is not just the work at Height Regs it is also about not placing people at risk who may be vulnerable Young Persons even if they don't think they are!

 

Legal requirements also include:

Health and Safety at Work etc Act 1974

Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations

1999

Provision and Use of Work Equipment Regulations 1998

Construction (Health, Safety and Welfare) Regulations

1996

[David A]

Is there an answer to the question among all this waffle and if so what is it?

[Just Some Bloke]

Is there an answer to the question among all this waffle?

Having read the links above in some detail but not bought a copy of the code of practice, the answer apears to be "no". :P

 

This is a question which comes up quite regularly on the Blue Room and no-one has yet posted any link which confirms that it is NOT legal. [by definition, everything is legal unless the state says it isn't! ]

 

However, the usual answer appears to be that an under 18 who has had appropriate training may work at height as long as they are supervised by an adult "competent person". In the real world this appears to be the way it's done, certainly.

[Stewart Newlands]

Also look at this:

http://webcommunities.hse.gov.uk/inovem/in...w?objectId=9331

 

David it is not waffle, it is a complex issue.

 

The point is all people using work equipment like towers have to be trained or if undergoing training supervised, with people under 18 supervision must be adequate at all times and young people should not be placed in situations where significant risk is involved.

 

So while it may not be strictly banned the conditions are quite strict, and casual training probably will not be acceptable to your insurers and the venue or school management and full formal training for every individual young person by a recognised instructor may not be justifiable cost wise.

[charl.ie]

It does say that

Regulation 5 [of the Work at Height Regulations 2005] insists that all people engaged in any activity related to work at height are competent

(emphasis and bracket added by me. Quote from http://webcommunities.hse.gov.uk/inovem/in...?objectId=9331)

 

So surely this means that they don't need formal training, although this is one (and probably the best) way of proving that you are competent. There must be other ways of showing you are competent to at least go up and work at height, even if you can't put up and take down the scaffold tower...

 

Does the law mention anything specific about age?

 

Edit to Add:

 

After seaching throught the regulations (http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2005/20050735.htm) I found it contained no reference to "adult", "child" or "young person"

[steve h]

So surely this means that they don't need formal training, although this is one (and probably the best) way of proving that you are competent. There must be other ways of showing you are competent to at least go up and work at height, even if you can't put up and take down the scaffold tower...

 

I was told that legally competence is defined as whether you have knowledge, are trained and have experience.

 

Steve

[Stewart Newlands]

from 7909 draft - competence (competent person)

sufficient technical knowledge, relevant skills, and practical experience for the nature and complexity of the duty to be undertaken. Able to prevent danger and, where appropriate, injury to themselves and others

 

NOTE ... A competent person is aware of their limitations.

 

skilled person

individual with relevant training and experience to identify, assess and avoid dangers that electricity can create

 

So in the case of the 7909 draft and many similar definitions to be competent and not a trainee for any task you need training, experience, knowledge of the subject, and common sense to prevent danger.

 

It is also a general principle in education that all students not just in schools are in training. This even goes for experienced and capable adults with loads of qualifications when they are on a training course!

[Brian]

I was told that legally competence is defined as whether you have knowledge, are trained and have experience.

Yep, that works as a definition. You'll also find that sentiment in several Regulations.

 

To charl.ie

 

just because the WAHR don't mention age it doesn't mean that other Acts or Regulations don't. For starters have a read of PUWER, W(HSW)R and MHSWR and their ACoPs.

[nothingatall666]

:) I was going to ask this question.

 

shame no one has given a definite answer (e.g no not at all/yes but only with supervision)

 

so would this mean that if I was going to work on a scaffold tower I would have to be first trained how to go up and down and how I should act when up their by a competent person (somone who uses scaffold everyday in their line of work(not a dogey builder)) and then I would be able to climb myself, being supervised?

and would that supervision have to be by that competent person?

when is someone allowed to work at height alone? or is this never the case?

how much training and to what extent is adequate(I think thats how its spelt). is just being trained by another competent person enough?, or should someone go to a training course?

 

some very clear instructions/rules would be nice.

there are millions of questions I could ask, and working at height is such a big part in this industry.

[roryfm]

...somone who uses scaffold everyday in their line of work(not a dogey builder)...

 

for those of you who are wondering a dogey is a "a motherless calf in a range herd of cattle." [thefreedictionary.com] and hence a dogey builder would not be suitable for training people in the use of scaffolding.

 

(sorry couldn't resist)

 

roryfm

[Dmills]

It seems to be difficult to track down all the legislation dealing with this, but the various children and young people acts have some stuff.

What it seems to come down to is that (If you are of school age - your profile does not say):

 

Prohibited Employment

No young person of compulsory school age can be employed:

 

* In a cinema, theatre, discotheque, dance hall or night club, except in connection with a performance given entirely by children.

* To sell or deliver alcohol.

* To deliver milk.

* In the collection of fuel and fuel oils.

* In a commercial kitchen.

* To collect or sort refuse.

* In any work which is more than 3 metres above ground / floor level.

* In employment involving harmful exposure to physical, biological or chemical agents.

<Snip>

 

And further that there is possibly the whole competence can of worms.

 

Regards, Dan.

[djw1981]

As an aside, AIUI, the childrens act also uses the term employment to cover both paid and voluntary work, so even if you are volunteering at school, theatre etc, you are still under the act.

[David A]

Also look at this:

http://webcommunities.hse.gov.uk/inovem/in...w?objectId=9331

 

David it is not waffle, it is a complex issue.

 

The point is all people using work equipment like towers have to be trained or if undergoing training supervised, with people under 18 supervision must be adequate at all times and young people should not be placed in situations where significant risk is involved.

 

So while it may not be strictly banned the conditions are quite strict, and casual training probably will not be acceptable to your insurers and the venue or school management and full formal training for every individual young person by a recognised instructor may not be justifiable cost wise.

I train many students every year, a scaffold properly set up cannot be called a significant hazard by any sensible person, how can you possibly hurt yourself without suicidal intent, if you want to see a dangerous environment in a school try the gymnasium or the sportsfields.Your reply was waffle because there were pages of information which did not address the question, just like parliament.

Random quotes "like children are not allowed to work over 3M above floor/ground" are totally meaningless unless there is some context, are students only allowed to work on the ground floor of multi-storey building?, does the platform of a hoist constitute a floor? is the platform of a platform ladder a floor?Is gymnastics considered work, if so iits all illegal, much more dangerous than climbing a ladder, and there are endless stupid implications of such a quote.

Fortunately the dozens of schools I teach at have no restrictions on sensible use of ladders, scaffold or elevated work platforms in training and I have never had the slightest accident doing so, I do stress to students that they must not put themselves in a situation where they feel unsafe or nervous about being high.

There are countless laws over centuries and we all break laws everyday and courts only apply sensible laws so unless this law has had some practical effect somewhere it can be disregarded as not relevant.

[Stewart Newlands]

David while I agree that lots of things are practicable; in the UK and this is a UK forum as Dmills has pointed out we have some specific restrictions that do not apply in your country.