vocal sound advice

[thewhirlwind]

I've just done this recording of my daughter and wondered what you think of the vocal sound and if there's anything I could/should do to improve it?

I'm very happy with the start of the song but I think maybe some of the higher bits in the song may be a bit harsh sounding but I really don't know if it's just me being paranoid.

any thoughts would be much appreciated

 

http://kayleigh330.vox.com/library/audio/6...98e6f70004.html

[Bobbsy]

Well, a mix is a very personal thing so I can only offer my opinion....

 

I'll start off by saying you have a very talented daughter--you should be proud of her. However, I'd tweak the mix in a few ways.

 

First off, I think her voice is a bit buried under the backing track, especially at the beginning. I'd change the balance to bring her a bit more forward.

 

Second, I don't think the vocal is badly harsh--maybe just a bit bright. Rather I think there's just a mis-match with the backing track which is so warm as to be almost muddy. I'd play a bit with the EQ, first adding a bit of midrange and taking down the highs on the vocal just a touch. Then I'd play a fair bit with the backing track, backing off the mids and lows a reasonable amount until, by ear, it sounds like the backing and the vocal are in the same acoustic space. Also, the back track is fairly dry so I'd probably back off on the vocal reverb just a touch.

 

Just my tuppence worth...I'm sure there will be as many different ideas as there are replies in this topic.

 

Bob

[johndenim]

Beat me to it Bob!

 

That is exactly what I was going to say!

Ok maybe not exactly, but did note the vocal struggling to come through a bit at the start(this gets better later on in the track) and the 'hiss' of the 's.

 

Not my opinion to back off on the reverb though, Personally I like to hear a small amount on a ballad, it helps sustain the vocal.

But as Bobbsy first said, it's a lot about preference. The great thing about recording is that there is no standard way of doing it.

Also if the mix was not done on studio reference speakers (no assumptions here, it may well have been) it can sound very different on other speaker systems.

A good job on the whole though, and yes your daughter is very talented, whilst listening to the track my 17 year old daughter came in and asked my why I was listening to leona lewis.

 

John Denim.

 

 

 

 

A concurrent post has been automatically merged from this point on.

 

EDIT: to add, I have just been listening to leona on youtube, not that you are aiming for somone elses mix, but the reverb on your track is a little bright.

It sound quite 'platey'? (a word?!)

Maybe a 'hall' type reverb would work well?

[Ben Lawrance]

I would also say that I would up the level of the vocals a touch.

 

I also felt the voice seemed a bit thin. Maybe add a touch of low mid EQ in.

 

Also, the reverb is a touch on the bright side. Maybe try EQing it a bit, or maybe change it for something a tad warmer.

 

 

My opinion is only my opinion.

 

Very talented daughter though, I wish her all the best.

[thewhirlwind]

Beat me to it Bob!

 

That is exactly what I was going to say!

Ok maybe not exactly, but did note the vocal struggling to come through a bit at the start(this gets better later on in the track) and the 'hiss' of the 's.

 

Not my opinion to back off on the reverb though, Personally I like to hear a small amount on a ballad, it helps sustain the vocal.

But as Bobbsy first said, it's a lot about preference. The great thing about recording is that there is no standard way of doing it.

Also if the mix was not done on studio reference speakers (no assumptions here, it may well have been) it can sound very different on other speaker systems.

A good job on the whole though, and yes your daughter is very talented, whilst listening to the track my 17 year old daughter came in and asked my why I was listening to leona lewis.

 

John Denim.

 

 

 

 

A concurrent post has been automatically merged from this point on.

 

EDIT: to add, I have just been listening to leona on youtube, not that you are aiming for somone elses mix, but the reverb on your track is a little bright.

It sound quite 'platey'? (a word?!)

Maybe a 'hall' type reverb would work well?

 

many thanks bob, john and ben for your replies and compliments on my daughters voice.

I will try and play with the level at the beginning and the eq later on today

I am using the large hall setting on a lexicon pcm91 on the recording,I am wondering if I get some ringing from the room it's recorded

in.I was thinking of maybe putting some quilts behind the mic and also maybe behind her to see if that makes a difference.

like I say I am happy with the sound when she is singing in her low range but I wonder if when she is singing higher the sound is a little bright/ringy.I don't know if that is her voice or what I'm doing or a combination of both.

I think also sometimes you can become hung up on certain things when they are not noticeable to others which is why I posted it on here.

When I first got the lexicon reverb I spent ages going through all the different presets and in the end just became totally bamboozled! I don't know if you've found the same.

I mixed the vocals with the backing track using our EAW jfx290 pa speakers

[6th Order]

At the risk of being unpopular, I think what you're hearing is something slightly different.

 

I have listend to the song three times now and I think it's a technique issue.

 

I have a few questions:

 

Has she had any vocal training?

Do you have any control of the backing vocals?

Was the vocal recorded over several takes?

 

If you listen to the first verse and chorus, you hear a very nice vocal tone in the style, plenty of control of the notes and good expression.

As the song progresses, especially in the bridge and the modulation, there sounds like there is an element of strain. As that comes in, the notes aren't being supported as well as at the beginning, shifting the sound towards the nasal end of the spectrum and losing some of the great tone she starts with.

 

It would be patronising for me to make comments about age etc but a little more diaphragm control and a little more relaxing on the big notes and in the upper register will go a long way.

 

I don't think the 'fix it in the mix' approach is quite right, though I'd agree that the vocal could be higher in the mix. A simple idea would be to mix on your EAW's then playback through a HiFi (cheap would be better!) and see how the mix alters. Also try headphones to see how the mix changes.

 

Finally, I would say that I thought it actually a good rendition of the song on a 'Leona' style.

 

Out of interest, what did you use to record/mix?

[thewhirlwind]

At the risk of being unpopular, I think what you're hearing is something slightly different.

 

I have listend to the song three times now and I think it's a technique issue.

 

I have a few questions:

 

Has she had any vocal training?

Do you have any control of the backing vocals?

Was the vocal recorded over several takes?

 

If you listen to the first verse and chorus, you hear a very nice vocal tone in the style, plenty of control of the notes and good expression.

As the song progresses, especially in the bridge and the modulation, there sounds like there is an element of strain. As that comes in, the notes aren't being supported as well as at the beginning, shifting the sound towards the nasal end of the spectrum and losing some of the great tone she starts with.

 

It would be patronising for me to make comments about age etc but a little more diaphragm control and a little more relaxing on the big notes and in the upper register will go a long way.

 

I don't think the 'fix it in the mix' approach is quite right, though I'd agree that the vocal could be higher in the mix. A simple idea would be to mix on your EAW's then playback through a HiFi (cheap would be better!) and see how the mix alters. Also try headphones to see how the mix changes.

 

Finally, I would say that I thought it actually a good rendition of the song on a 'Leona' style.

 

Out of interest, what did you use to record/mix?

 

Hi

thanks very much for your reply.

don't worry about being unpopular it's honest reedback that we want.Our aim is to improve as much as possible by taking onboard peoples comments good and bad and trying to learn from them.I really feel with a few tweaks here and there Kayleigh has the potential to go a long way.

Some of the points you've raised are really very interesting and kind of enforce what I have thought for some time.

Kayleigh has just turned 16 and has had five or six one on one singing lessons in the last few years.

In my opinion she has a wonderful warm tone in her low to mid range but I've always thought that her higher range

although still pretty good could be improved to have a warmer sound

 

 

Funnily enough when we recorded this song on the first take I tried to get her to sing a bit quieter and a bit more mellow

to get a warmer sound on the higher notes but it then seemed a bit lack lustre.

From memory the recording was done in one take but she did redo a couple of bits she wasn't happy with including the startWhat you hear on the recording is just how she sings it live.It could be that she just sings too loud later in the song I don't know.

I'm not an expert on vocal training etc but imo I don't think it's a strain issue as she really has a great vocal range I think it may be

just a case of where and how she places her voice.I do remember her singing teacher telling her to really push from her diagphram when she'e singing and that after singing she should ache like she's done a workout so maybe she should just try and sing a bit more relaxed and not push so hard in her higher range.

If you have any ideas on the best way for us to try and improve this I would really appreciate it.I guess the obvious answer would be to go and get singing lessons but trying to find a good teacher is not that easy.The reason she had five or six lessons in the last couple of years is because we finally found who we thought was a good teacher but she suddenly upped and went with no warning and that was the end of that! alot of the other singing teachers that we've come across seem to teach an "Aled Jones" style which is not really what we want.

In reply to your other questions

we didn't have any control over the bacing vocals as they are on the backing track.

we used a neumann u87 mic a spl channel one channel strip and a lexicon pcm91 reverb on a large hall setting.

this was done through my dynacord cms1000 mixer and then into cubase.

 

here's a recording of Kayleigh singing reflections which doesn't have as many highs so sounds alot warmer imo

 

http://kayleigh330.vox.com/library/audio/6...ca6930000b.html

 

thanks again for your reply as you've obviously given it some serious thought.

[johndenim]

I particularly enjoyed the falsetto part at the end, Leona can over do it at times with too much warbling vibrato, but Kayleigh

found a nice balance IMO.

 

I too would not prefer the "aled jones" style of teaching, I personally believe it takes out the individuality of a vocalist.

The breathing through your diagphram part is right though, if she practices this through out the day (though not to extremes or her mates will probably laugh at her!) it will become second nature.

 

During a mot at the doctors recently I was asked to take a deep breath in, and when my chest didn't rise he knew I was a singer, I had to force myself to breath in and make it, which was quite hard!

Sorry, can't listen to the second track just yet as I don't want to wake up the kids. ( I like my music loud! )

Personally I like the lexicon effects, maybe have a play and see if you can find a reverb that's a bit warmer?

 

John Denim.

[Bobbsy]

A few general thoughts about your recording technique (as opposed to your daughter's singing).

 

-I would never record a track with reverb already in place. Always record "dry" and add effects after the fact. The gives you the most flexibility to get the reverb tails (and all your other effects) just right. If necessary, use the lexicon to put some verb in your daughter's headphones, but don't record the output.

 

-Don't be afraid to use the "in the box" 'verbs in Cubase--or others that you can download. There are some nice choices out there.

 

-Unless you have a purpose built studio with known great acoustics, aim to record everything a "dry" as you can. Yes, indeed, use quilts or whatever to minimise the room effect. Most domestic rooms sound hollow and boxy, not the sort of reverb you want to have!

 

-Use the best monitors you can get to check your mix--not hi-fi speakers designed to make everything "sound good". For reference, I listened on Genelec 8030A monitors with a 7050B sub. Yeah, I just happen to like Genelec!

 

-Commercial backing tracks like you use tend to be quite heavily compressed. When I've done recording using them, I'll use my DAW to make little changes in level as required to put some dynamics back.

 

-Partially contradicting the above point, I'll almost always use some light compression on vocals to help keep them "out of the mire". Note: any/all dynamics processing should be done before you apply effects like reverb, otherwise the reverb tails can go very strange.

 

-Don't imitate somebody else's mix. Use your ears--and don't be afraid to experiment!

 

Finally, just a note on your daughter's voice: I do think singing lessons would be a benefit. She is very talented and doesn't need help "singing" but a good teacher could give her the tricks to let her do her thing without risking damage to her voice. With a young voice like hers, this can be important.

 

As always, hope this helps.

 

Bob

[6th Order]

Just to clarify, I'm saying some of the notes are strained, not her whole performance. It's also not about vocal range per se, more keeping the good tone throughout it. This is mainly about breathing and 'supporting' the note but how relaxed the shoulders, throat, mouth and and face are can all affect tone. As can volume. Bearing in mind that we're talking about subtleties here.

 

You've also got some great advice about vocal training producing longevity and recording technique; plenty to be getting on with!

 

Another point to clarify, when mixing, mix on the best 'reference' monitors you can. When you think you've got it right, then try other systems like hifi or even your car (!) to listen to how the mix changes.

 

I'm looking forward to listening to the next track.

[david.elsbury]

Overall it sounds good. I agree that (to my ears) there is too much reverb, but I also know that depending on what you are monitoring on, this can get lost in the speakers. (What is the reverb, by the way? Hardware, or DAW plugin? I haven't yet found a 'verb that I'm as fond of, but this one may just be it)

 

I'd say that's it :D

(flip, your daughter is talented as well :)

 

A concurrent post has been automatically merged from this point on.

 

Sorry, /me read up. Lexicon :)

[Killyp]

Vocals need some more processing to help them push through the mix a bit. You're kinda right RE the vocals sounding a bit 'harsh', although I'd use the word 'bright' (they aren't painful to listen to, as they are in a truly harsh recording).

 

Cubase's built in plugins are okay, but nothing special. Use the 'VST Dynamics' plugin, add a bit of compression (dynamic threshold about 2 dB lower than the vocals seem to be hovering generally, 2.5/1 or therabouts ratio, and soft knee enabled). There's also quite a bit of over-sibilance there, which you want to lose without getting rid of any of the top-end sparkle (something which would happen if you just re-EQ'd it). Stick a De-Esser on the vocals and have a play until the 's'es stop sounding like gas leaks, but you still get the nice 'sparkle' on her voice.

[david.elsbury]

It's also nice to hear the diction there (the S's etc)

[Bobbsy]

Since we're talking about reverbs, one of the most useful downloads I ever did was "Glaceverb". Assuming Cubase can run VST effects (I'm an Audition user) it's a worthwhile (and free!) download available HERE.

 

To my ear anyway they're a lovely, silky smooth set of verbs with a user interface that makes customising the presets easy.

 

Just a quick note--when I suggested backing off the reverb, I meant only slighly. Certainly ballads like this benefit from having some; it just sounded "wrong" to me because of the very dry nature of the backing track (and I hate applying effects to pre-mixed tracks!).

 

Bob

[Trunker]

Your daughters voice has to be as good as anything in the charts atm. With regards to the backing, I would put a little 'dip' in the EQ between 800 - 4000HZ, not a lot just a tad. This will help the voice to 'nestle' in the music without 'sitting on top' or being buried in the music.