vocal sound advice

[fatfrog]

She's Got Talent, I'm very impressed-Like Bobbsy I'm a genelec fan - Had a listen on my 8020's no sub :D

 

I definitely agree with the others regarding the vocals needing a lift out of the rest of the mix, It's a small little bit muddy at the minute, so by brining them up a small bit 1 or 2 db should make a big difference.

 

I'd also agree you should always try and record dry & add reverb etc in post production.

 

What gear are you using?

 

Alan

[thewhirlwind]

She's Got Talent, I'm very impressed-Like Bobbsy I'm a genelec fan - Had a listen on my 8020's no sub

 

I definitely agree with the others regarding the vocals needing a lift out of the rest of the mix, It's a small little bit muddy at the minute, so by brining them up a small bit 1 or 2 db should make a big difference.

 

I'd also agree you should always try and record dry & add reverb etc in post production.

 

What gear are you using?

 

Alan

 

thanks so much to everyone for your replies.

I'm going to try out some of your recommendations as soon as I can and I'll post the results up on here when I've done it.

it's been my wifes birthday today and we go away for a week on Friday so if I don't do it in the next day or two it may take a couple of weeks till I can post the results.

 

I used to use the reverb in cubase but found it a bit ringy hence why I now use the lexicon.to be honest I haven't worked out if it's possible to use external effects on my version of cubase ( system 4 ),which is why I've added it straight on the vocal recording and not recorded it dry.

Alan regarding the gear I'm using

Neumann u87 mic

SPL channel one channel strip

lexicon pcm91 reverb on large hall setting

I ran the effects and vocal through my Dynacord cms1000 mixer and took

a mono out of the mixer into cubase

[mervaka]

what sound card have you got?

 

given enough inputs and outputs on it, you should be able to route straight to the lexicon via a send, then return it on an audio channel. I believe the newer versions of cubase allow for "inserts" in the studio, which is handy!

[johndenim]

You will be able to add many plugin's to cubase, take a look at the manual, it is in there.

 

Can I please ask why you decided to use an lexicon outboard when the dynacord has just as many choices?

Lexicon effects and the built in effects in the dynacord are made by the same company.

 

John Denim.

[6th Order]

I won't answer on behalf of the OP, but surely a PCM91 is considered a higher end piece of kit than the Effects section of the Dynacord (good though it is) no?

 

If we were talking about an MPX100 then maybe I'd be wondering too....

[thewhirlwind]

You will be able to add many plugin's to cubase, take a look at the manual, it is in there.

 

Can I please ask why you decided to use an lexicon outboard when the dynacord has just as many choices?

Lexicon effects and the built in effects in the dynacord are made by the same company.

 

John Denim.

 

Hi John

 

As mentioned by another poster I use the pcm91 because it should be a higher quality reverb.I've been looking to get a warmer sound on Kay's voice over time, so far I've used the effects on the dynacord, a tc electronic m one xl that I own and now the lexicon pcm91.

the recording of "reflections" I posted on here was using the m one xl which I was quite happy with but I think the lexicon just has a little more quality in the sound.

[Bobbsy]

As hardware reverbs go, I'd be fairly happy in with either the M-one XL or the PCM 91. Both are nice units. For live work, I slightly prefer the M-one; I have to say I've never tried any for recording, having been happy with software 'verbs used in Audition. Do try that Glaceverb link by the way--I think you'll be pleased with what you can do with it in Cubase. I've played with using an SPX990 and/or some of the reverbs built into my DM1000 but keep going back to "in the box" mixing" every time.

 

As a general comment, I tend to use my mixer as an input/output device and a way of doing a good monitor mix for headphones--but do the rest of my mixing in Audition (in your case Cubase). Obviously everybody has different tastes and preferences but, as you get more into recording your daughter, it might be worth a try for you.

 

...jealous of your U87 by the way!

 

Bob

[6th Order]

Right, I've just had a chance to listen to the second track. It sound very good. Very 'fizzy' percussion on the backing, but the vocal tone is spot on.

 

Listening to the two tracks, 'Reflections' has a much more open vocal tone all of the way through. Kay (if I can call her that) keeps the feel and tone consitently and there are no points where the notes have to be worked for. This is the difference I hear between the two. Obviously there are comments about the reverb, mixing levels etc that apply, but there's a real difference in the source.

 

The 'Reflections' vocal, if it's a single take, is very impressive.

 

It would be interesting to look at the 'volume' of each vocal performance to see how much louder the 'Moment Like This' vocal was. Having listened to it again, you can actually hear the compression shifting at points, suggesting the the dynamic range was greater. This is where recording without processing comes in, as suggested above, allowing you to make fine adjustments in the mix.

[thewhirlwind]

what sound card have you got?

 

given enough inputs and outputs on it, you should be able to route straight to the lexicon via a send, then return it on an audio channel. I believe the newer versions of cubase allow for "inserts" in the studio, which is handy!

 

Hi

I'm using cubase system 4 which came with a m14 box and cubase sl3.

I don't know how to use external effects with it or even if you can.

the box has digital in and out,I've connected that to my m one xl and I'm getting a signal going into it

but I can't work out how to get the signal back to the track in cubase....aaarrrgh!

I've been trying for a few hours no but no luck!

This is why I've been recording the vocal with the reverb already added through my mixer.I know it's best to record dry

but at the moment I seem to have the choice of either record dry and use the reverb in cubase or record with the external reverb already added then obviously I can't adjust it later.

 

A concurrent post has been automatically merged from this point on.

 

Right, I've just had a chance to listen to the second track. It sound very good. Very 'fizzy' percussion on the backing, but the vocal tone is spot on.

 

Listening to the two tracks, 'Reflections' has a much more open vocal tone all of the way through. Kay (if I can call her that) keeps the feel and tone consitently and there are no points where the notes have to be worked for. This is the difference I hear between the two. Obviously there are comments about the reverb, mixing levels etc that apply, but there's a real difference in the source.

 

The 'Reflections' vocal, if it's a single take, is very impressive.

 

It would be interesting to look at the 'volume' of each vocal performance to see how much louder the 'Moment Like This' vocal was. Having listened to it again, you can actually hear the compression shifting at points, suggesting the the dynamic range was greater. This is where recording without processing comes in, as suggested above, allowing you to make fine adjustments in the mix.

 

Hi thanks again for taking the time to comment.

 

I've just had a look on cubase and the reflections track was done in one take.

I do think that the reflections track is more suited to her voice,but maybe she's got into a few bad habits singing live lately.I do think it's a good idea to record the tracks you're going to sing live as it gives you that attention to detail and you can't egt away with it like you can live!

 

I think we'll try and record "a moment like this" again after we're back from holiday in a couple of weeks.

I've shown Kay the comments on here so we'll see if she sings it less forcefully if that makes the difference.

As you can see from my last post I'm struggling in trying to get external effects working through my version of cubase hence why I'm

recording with the reverb already on the vocal.

It's very frustrating,I might end up buying some new software.the thing that puts me oiff doing this is it's always a major hassle setting it up.

 

A concurrent post has been automatically merged from this point on.

 

As hardware reverbs go, I'd be fairly happy in with either the M-one XL or the PCM 91. Both are nice units. For live work, I slightly prefer the M-one; I have to say I've never tried any for recording, having been happy with software 'verbs used in Audition. Do try that Glaceverb link by the way--I think you'll be pleased with what you can do with it in Cubase. I've played with using an SPX990 and/or some of the reverbs built into my DM1000 but keep going back to "in the box" mixing" every time.

 

As a general comment, I tend to use my mixer as an input/output device and a way of doing a good monitor mix for headphones--but do the rest of my mixing in Audition (in your case Cubase). Obviously everybody has different tastes and preferences but, as you get more into recording your daughter, it might be worth a try for you.

 

...jealous of your U87 by the way!

 

Bob

 

if I can't get my lexicon working through cubase I will try that glaceverb as my next option.

re the U87,hopefully one day I'll learn how to use it properly!

[Bobbsy]

Well, a quick look at the Cubase web site confirms that Cubase 4 can use VST effects--I was pretty sure you'd be able to since VST was originally a Steinberg system. Beyond that, I can't help since telling you how to do it in Audition isn't likely to be much help. Hopefully a Cubase user will be along with advice since there's a whole world of plugins out there that you're currently missing!

 

(Just in case it helps, in Audition all I have to do is hit a menu item called "scan for VST folders--once that's done, downloaded plugins show up in the effects list alongside the native ones.)

 

Bob

[dymondaudio]

just out of interest...did you use any mastering equipment, finalizers etc. etc. ???

[thewhirlwind]

just out of interest...did you use any mastering equipment, finalizers etc. etc. ???

 

Hi

no I didn't just set the volume for the vocal against the backing track and exported as an audio file.

why did you ask...is this something I should be doing in cubase?

[dymondaudio]

not at all, recording studio's will often use some of mastering/finalizing device. In effect cubase is your mastering device, mastering is merely a name given to a stage of recording (useually the end) where you make all your final tweaks, such as:

 

Edit minor flaws.

Apply noise reduction to eliminate hum and hiss.

Adjust stereo width.

Add ambience.

Equalize audio between tracks.

Adjust volumes.

Dynamic expansion.

Dynamic compression.

Peak limit the tracks.

 

One of my favourite toys to do all that is the TC Electronics finalizer express, not too bad at around £650

[mervaka]

is the M14 a 4 in, 4 out device? I'll assume it is, and I'll assume channels 1/2 out are your monitors.

 

one way I can see this working is you can bounce the lexicon's return down to a stereo channel after you record the vocals. to start with, record the dry vocal as normal, then set up a send to auxes 3/4 out. connect 3/4 out to your lexicon, then feed them back into the sound card, say on 3/4 just for simplicity's sake. create a new stereo audio track (lets call it "lexicon return" or something) using 3/4 as the input, and have it play back out in the mix as normal. stick the vocals and the lexicon return on monitor, set your gains and reverb parameters up. hit record arm on the lexicon return channel and hit record in the transport bar, then play. cubase should now record your reverb for you. however, if you want to change the reverb parameters, you'll have to either EQ the take or re-bounce it.

[thewhirlwind]

is the M14 a 4 in, 4 out device? I'll assume it is, and I'll assume channels 1/2 out are your monitors.

 

one way I can see this working is you can bounce the lexicon's return down to a stereo channel after you record the vocals. to start with, record the dry vocal as normal, then set up a send to auxes 3/4 out. connect 3/4 out to your lexicon, then feed them back into the sound card, say on 3/4 just for simplicity's sake. create a new stereo audio track (lets call it "lexicon return" or something) using 3/4 as the input, and have it play back out in the mix as normal. stick the vocals and the lexicon return on monitor, set your gains and reverb parameters up. hit record arm on the lexicon return channel and hit record in the transport bar, then play. cubase should now record your reverb for you. however, if you want to change the reverb parameters, you'll have to either EQ the take or re-bounce it.

 

thanks merv

I think I've sorted something out by using the digital out into my m one xl and then recording it back onto a track which is I guess something like you were suggesting.

Haven't sussed it out with the lexicon yet as when I tried it was much too "wet" and I couldn't see how to adjust it.there was a mix knob for this on the front of the m one xl but it didn't appear as straight forward on the lexicon.

I'm away for a week now so I'll try it when I get back.