Vehicle Choice Dilema

[djandydee]

I work full time for the BBC as an Engineer and have been running a small production company for nearly 20 years now, providing Lighting, PA and now a little bit of video. Every year I have ploughed my profit back into buying more gear - why?... so I can do bigger gigs to make more money to buy more gear to do bigger gigs. Where will it end?

 

However I have hit a literal brick wall as my equipment store and van have reached their practical floor space maximum and my van is starting to fail MOTs.

 

I have over 40 speakers, amp racks, desks, outboard FX racks, 80 power cans, 24 moving lights, loads of maxi and lite beam truss, motors, drapes and about 5 miles of cable. All in all 45 boxes on wheels and about the same without.

 

Up to now I have used a 2000 semi high roof LWB transit and a 10x6x8 foot trailor. The obvious problem with this is the truss has to go on the roofrack and gets wet so we sometimes rig on wet truss, the interior height of the van is 5 foot so I have to stoop which is a ball buster, the trailor side panels are starting to sag. The not so obvious problem is that all of this fully loaded must be over weight on occasions, even taking several trips.

 

I am able to drive a 7.5T lorry on my licence so no problems there but I have heard that the government are trying to pass a law, requiring a mini MOT every 3 months at a cost of £100 and a big MOT every year for lorries and God only knows how much tax is going to be. Insurance is another unknown - remember this is Northern Ireland, the most expensive part of the UK at the minute. Hiring a lorry for a weekend is nearly £200 using their insurance.

 

I have seen Luton based sprinters with a 13 foot box on the back which would definatly be bigger than the transit but would still need the trailor.

 

I have seen LWB high roof sprinters (mostly city link who deliver stuff to me from AC lighting etc) which are really long and high.

 

I still need to be able to deliver a small hire, say a couple of MACs and a set of drapes.

 

 

I have said all that to ask this. - Someone on BR must be at my level and is facing the same dilema. Someone was there 5 years ago and has sorted this out. What is the best approach. Do I need a small van and a lorry, do I hire a lorry and get a huge van?

 

Thanks for your patience and look forward to your advise - PS. I am normally a reader of forums so don't have a big post count.

[gareth]

Another potential issue to consider if you're thinking about the 7.5T route is the necessity for O-licenses and compliane with tacho rules. I'm assuming that NI works to the same system as mainland UK regarding these ....

[Snailtrail]

Things get very complicated if you're going to buy and run a vehicle over 3.5T mgw. The biggest factor is the Operators' ('O') licence. You will need to look into the implications and costs of that. If you are just transporting your own equipment, you can run on a "restricted" O licence. If you are going to be using the vehicle to transport kit for anyone else the you need a full O licence and someone with a Certificate of Professional Competence (CPC) to take on such a licence. You also need to register a place where the vehicle(s) will be kept. Your vehicle will need to be subject to a regular inspection schedule (every 4-6 weeks, dependant on use) and a full MOT every year.

 

As you can see so far, this is a big can of worms and not to be entered into lightly!

 

I would advise getting a big (LWB high top sprinter type) van and hiring a 7.5T when you need it. Lutons are a lot more vulnerable to overloading as there is lots of space but they tend to be heavier to start with.

 

Hope that helps a bit, Sam

[Pete McCrea]

The LWB Sprinter option will probably give you the most space and weight. The brand new sprinters have got fatter by 100kgs, so you can get about 1300kg in them. You can also get a roof rack for them, so you could in theory get the truss on the top, but this would lower the total loading. The LWB is still useable for small deliveries, as well as fully loaded.

 

One option might be try and find a 4.5 ton sprinter (one with double wheels at the rear), as it would give you the weight capacity. But will still need an O licence due to the weight.

 

Bear in mind that it is still easily possible to overload a LWB sprinter, so you might be worth weighing your kit and labelling cases so you know the weight that's in the vans.

[djandydee]

Good advise so far.

 

I fully understand the Luton problem. The box itself is quite heavy and the 3.5T sprinter series can only carry just over 1 tonne. Add the box and you are under 1 tonne. 8 MAC 600 boxes a pearl and a pile of cable could weight that alone. The advantage seems to be the option of tail lift and a nice regular load capicity (what there is of it)

 

Upon investigation, the 'O' licence does not seem to be required in NI just yet for people transporting their own kit, different for hauliers, I am lead to believe. What will the EU impose on us next - a ban on flashing lights, haze and sound levels above 23dB

 

The running costs of a 7.5T lorry then

 

Road Tax, insurance, PSV, maintenance. Maybe some sort of lease arangement would work.

 

Andy

[Stuart91]

Someone on BR must be at my level and is facing the same dilema. Someone was there 5 years ago and has sorted this out. What is the best approach. Do I need a small van and a lorry, do I hire a lorry and get a huge van?

 

We've hit this problem before. A very brief exploration of the O licence was enough to put me off going down that route. To a certain extent we've tailored our stock to minimise weight. This was certainly a factor in moving over to small-format digital desks, and investing in lightweight power amps. For larger events we will typically make two runs on one van if they're local, or send two vans if the event is far enough away that a double run will be too time consuming. Typically the second run out (and first run back) will consist of big bulky things (like the FOH stacks for instance) that are quickly deployed.

 

We find that any show that requires two vanloads of equipment will have more than two people working on it anyway. If we shelled out the money for a truck, we'd have it sitting for three or four days a week doing nothing. If we get to the stage that every show is requiring two or more vanloads to get to it, we'll revisit the truck issue but I'm pretty sure that it wouldn't pay for itself at the moment.

 

If you don't need an O licence in Northern Ireland the threshold for getting a truck lowers considerably, but the costs of fuel, tax and insurance are still going to bring it right up. Work out how many times you could hire a truck for £200 before you "break even" on ownership...

[Simon Lewis]

Upon investigation, the 'O' licence does not seem to be required in NI just yet for people transporting their own kit, different for hauliers, I am lead to believe.

 

Looking at the DVLNI site, and knowing the English law, I'm slightly confused...

 

A lot will depend upon whether carrying your own goods for business purposes constitutes "carrying goods for reward". In England, it does, but they allow an additional category of "Restricted Operator's Licence". "To carry your own goods in the course of your trade or business in Great Britain you need a restricted licence. You must not carry goods for other people for hire or reward if you have a restricted licence".

 

There's also an issue to do with pulling trailers. Although an initial reading of the rules suggests otherwise, I believe you can get away with a van and small trailer combination over 3.5t and not need an O licence (but make sure the train weight isn't exceeded) but you would need a tachograph fitted and demonstrate compliance with driver's hours.

 

If NI doesn't run the restricted licence, it looks as if you can get away without the O licence, but you will probably need to adhere to tacho rules, and you could be caught out if any goods are not your own!

 

I'd suggest a long wheelbase van will give the best compromise in terms of low load height, driveability, cost of maintenance, economy etc. Lutons are harder to load (unless you have a loading bay), tail lifts add weight and take away from your payload, and need a LOLER inspection each year. An aluminium ramp can be used with a van, either loose or fitted by the rear door and folded up.

 

Good luck with the search!

 

Simon

[Jivemaster]

Luton bodies put you at risk of overloading, 3.5t+ puts you in need of more paperwork and restricts the number of people who you can engage to drive - the last ten years of driving test passes didn't get 7.5t

 

I'd look at a full height VW, Peugot, LDV or Citroen. in the region of 3.25t That way you can carry lots of stuff and most full licence holders can legelly drive it, with your permission.

 

I'd also look at some serious weight saving and start to consider the load of, and in each flightcase, so that you can confidently approach Max Wt without exceding it.

[StevieR]

The other interesting thing is that if you look at the payload capacity of a lot of 7.5T trucks, you only get 2.3 to 2.8 Tonnes in them (about 3 max). Its often a lot cheaper to use two good 3.5T vans - as long as you have an additional driver.

 

Steve

[Stuart91]

The other interesting thing is that if you look at the payload capacity of a lot of 7.5T trucks, you only get 2.3 to 2.8 Tonnes in them (about 3 max).

 

Some brands of vehicle are better than others, and there can be quite a margin of difference. We found this out the hard way when we hired a trucking company to move some stuff for us, and their truck had a payload approx 1000kg less than a truck I had previously rented elsewhere, and was basing my loading upon. (They upgraded us to a 17T model)

[Shaggy]

The problem with two vans vs a truck is that a truck is a lot quicker than two vans to pack as the load space is wider and has straight sides, as opposed to being narrow with curved sides.

[Stuart91]

the load space is wider and has straight sides, as opposed to being narrow with curved sides.

 

I've noticed (somewhat enviously) that the new Ducato/Relay/Boxer vans are a lot squarer than the previous models were. (It's a shame that the front end is so profoundly ugly, mind you!)

[djandydee]

Thanks again for all your replies on this topic.

 

I am no further forward unfortunatly. I have spoken with NI trucks and there is such a thing as a 6.5T truck. They can fit up to 19.5' boxes and as the chassis is lighter than the 7.5T, the load weight capacity is the same in around 3T. However, these vehicles are like hens teeth second hand and are really only available new.

 

A 20' box gives a floor area of 12M^2. A large sprinter is about 7M^2.If I got someone to supply a trailor with the same floor area, the combined area would be greater than the lorry. The combination could then be split up for smaller van only gigs.

 

The trouble is I do a lot of PA and lighting gigs together. That requires a front and back truss which means 24M truss, either 4 push up stands, hand hoists or electric hoists, plus drapes, plus FOH, Mons, amps, Multi, mics, stands, desks, OB plus stage fixtures. All of this is bulky and heavy.

 

 

If money was no object....40' artic....but then if money was no object I could retire.

[Chappie]

The problem with two vans vs a truck is that a truck is a lot quicker than two vans to pack as the load space is wider and has straight sides, as opposed to being narrow with curved sides.

Two vans are also more expensive, per mile, than a 7.5T. A standard Sprinter/ Transit type van will cost approx. 2/3 that of a 7.5T once you have factored in all costs, including depreciation and fuel.

 

One problem I have always had with running a 7.5T is that there seems to be very little guidance for people running a very small fleet with regard to procedures for MOTs, PMIs, tachos, driver training etc. Everything seems to be set up for the big boys and you need to do a lot of research before you know all the laws.

[i_hate_fisicks]

A 20' box gives a floor area of 12M^2. A large sprinter is about 7M^2.If I got someone to supply a trailor with the same floor area, the combined area would be greater than the lorry. The combination could then be split up for smaller van only gigs.

 

The trouble is I do a lot of PA and lighting gigs together. That requires a front and back truss which means 24M truss, either 4 push up stands, hand hoists or electric hoists, plus drapes, plus FOH, Mons, amps, Multi, mics, stands, desks, OB plus stage fixtures. All of this is bulky and heavy.

 

I've done the large van and trailer thing. It can save money in certain circumstances (in ours, it was cheaper to train drivers to get a trailer licence than a 7.5T one, and also trailers don't need much maintenance), but it is rubbish. Your crew will hate you for it! You probably already know this as you say you do van and trailer already. I hate forever coupling and recoupling the trailer. And while you technically have a greater load area than a 7.5Ter, you can't utilise it properly, because balancing the load in the trailer so that it doesn't exceed the van's rated trailer nose weight is a nightmare. We found eventually that the trailer was brilliant for putting truss in, it being big and square, and truss being nicely balanced, but other than that was rubbish.

 

The thing with 7.5T trucks is that they are basically HGVs. All the regulations are the same. You still need O licence, tachos, inspections etc etc, but a 7.5Ter is still really easy to overload. We find that on a standard (for us) PA gig, the truck is full (weight wise) after you put control and monitors in. And yet of course there's plenty of space in there for another tonne of PA, and perhaps a load of lamp on top. So, if you go down this road, you may as well go the whole hog and get a proper HGV. Whether that means 18T or something smaller like a 12T is for you to work out. A 12T truck is likely to have a payload of 6T, and they're not much bigger than a 7.5Ter. I have had box size issues on these before though. My top tip would probably be to work out the size of vehicle you think you need, and then buy the next size up. You always run out of space too quickly in trucks!