Smoke vs Haze

[Jamtastic3]

Hey BR,

I work in a nightclub and I'm thinking about moving from a smoke machine (Magnum 2000) to a powerful hazer because of different factors:

 

The amount of gunk and oil condensation in fixtures and fans.

Money costs of buying smoke fluid and how much is actually used per night/week/month.

 

I also heard that smoke fluid can damage speaker cones in nightclub environments over time.

 

I can see that haze has finer properties and therefore the distribution of oil particles seems finer in the air but do you think that haze would be less harsh on equipment but at the same time, cost the same or less for the same amount of volume needed for a clubnight/bandnight compared to the smoke machine.

 

We use our smoke machine alot and for club nights, the venue can be and "needs to be" very smokey. I would say for an average club night in a 400 capacity venue, we use just under a litre of fluid (which to us is alot but this means nothing to promotors!).

So now I'm considering haze but I'd like justifications from you fine people.

 

Your thoughts please...

[LXbydesign]

YES I agree. I have swapped out our old hazer / smoke combos with all jem hazers - 3 different models for size of rooms and they all take the "Pro-Haze" fluid, as opposed to the others which used C-Beam fluid.

 

I found that there is very little residue now, and I only need to clean mirrors blow out fans etc once every month and a half instead of every other week!! Well worth it.

[niclights]

Oil-based haze machines are the ones that cause nightmares with residue, simply because it is mineral oil pumped into the air that naturally condenses. Horrible to clean off optics and potentially dangerous in amplifiers and dimmers if enough particules collect in the residue to make a conductive path. For this reason I moved back to water/glycol.

 

However, I can't say I've ever noticed much difference between 'smoke' and 'haze' variants. Perhaps it will help because a smoke type machine might require occasional high-output bursts, rather than constant low-output? But the fluid/principles and particle density remain the same. It is all glycol therefore should make little difference to residue.

 

I'm currently using Unique's and see very little residue. Just dust mainly. Just as it was back with the good old ZR20!

 

Regardless, whatever you do, don't move to oil if this is your concern!

[johnhuson]

I think niclights has covered all the bases in terms of residue, but..........

 

We use our smoke machine alot and for club nights, the venue can be and "needs to be" very smokey.

 

If you really do "need" the venue to appear smoky then your not going to easily achieve the effect with a hazer. In terms of fluid consumption I don't think you'll see a vast reduction in fluid use if you switch to glycol based haze, I know our Jem 24/7s churn through fluid at a fairly reasonable pace. Our Cirro Stratas (cracked oil machines) are however incredibly efficient on fluid and produce a lovely haze but do have the major down fall of major residue.

[Ike]

...if enough particules collect in the [oil] residue to make a conductive path. For this reason I moved back to water/glycol.

While I agree oil is more messy your thinking here is a bit odd. Mineral oil is a very good insulator and is used in everything from transformers to medium and high voltage cables for cooling and to prevent water getting into paper (and similar) insulation, dust is generally quite a good insulator depending of course on its origin. Glycol on the other hand is very hygroscopic, will attract moisture from the air which combines with dust to form a conductive slime. This is IMHO very unlikely to cause problems however it certainly isn't a reason to go from oil to glycol. As the OP is talking about a nightclub I'm guessing one of the biggest problems is likely to be humidity.

 

Off topic but a similar effect to that of the glycol can be seen where magnesium chloride is used for road deicing. Particles can get thrown up by traffic and find there way to insulators on overhead lines and transformers where they attract moisture and eventually cause a flash over.

[niclights]

I must agree that it is not such logical thinking. Indeed I always thought along the lines of oil being a good insulator, but repairers and manufacturers told me their experience was of catastrophic failure (fire) occuring regularly in hardware because of this and they considered it a real problem. Who am I to argue?!

 

But my experience of residue remains the same with oil being horrible and glycol not causing me any trouble.

 

I don't see any problems in achieving 'very smoky' with a glycol/water base in a 400cap room, but obviously it depends on model. Again, from experience I am certain the Uniques will take you all the way to pea soup if you really want!

[Jamtastic3]

So, if I was to go for a hazer, which one would I go for???

Remember that I use a Magnum 2000 smaoke machine at the moment so it needs to be as powerful as that (in terms of volume of smoke per club night) but something that doesn't need filled every night and takes the biscuit with fluid costs.

[niclights]

Didn't I already recommend the Unique (Look Solutions) twice? I'm sure I did!

 

Has fully variable output from nothing to ridiculous. Variable fan. Very fast warm-up (1min max). Fluid consumption will depend on output level, but it will definitely be suitable for your requirements.

[Jamtastic3]

Sorry niclights :)

 

Yeah the Unique I've used before. It's great but a tad too pricey.

[ceecrb1]

I have two points to add.

First is that having spent the last year in spain.. when I went home to edinburgh for xmas.. it was REALLY nice being in smoke-free and clear nightclubs/bars

 

Yes I know this reffers to people smoking as well.. but I just found the visibly clearer air.. far more appealing (in comparrison to in spain. people smoking and smoke machines) so for aesthetics, I now preffer hazers.

 

 

The second.. is an extreme case of pooley mac 2000 profile 2 days ago on my workshop bench.

The light was overheating rapidly and powering down the lamp, effects/gobos/diacs etc were sticking and it had 5 errors on screen at startup

It was severly mucked up and having big problems as a company hired it and planted it right in the output of a smoke machine!

Basically I had to completely strip the fixture down to each component.. clean them.. and rebuild it.

Including, removing the motherboad and completely opening the ballast and using PCB cleaner.

 

I know this was an extreme case but its gives a clear indication of what smoke machines do to robotic lights.

[Bewildered]

So, if I was to go for a hazer, which one would I go for???

 

I have a Le Maitre MVS hazer & im impressed with both the output & fluid use so far. have used it out side before to & seemed to hold its own.

[Ynot]

I have a Le Maitre MVS hazer & im impressed with both the output & fluid use so far. have used it out side before to & seemed to hold its own.

By coincidence, because our trusty (and over-worked) Jem 24/7 suddenly failed to produce haze at the weekend - mid-run - (fan works great tho! :)) I hired in a Le M MVS.

I am quite impressed with the quality of the haze produced - much finer than the Jem - though slightly intrigued as it doesn't seem to be as responsive as the 24/7 - ie it doesn't always appear to produce haze on demand. Though that could just be me with a new machine...

[niclights]

Yeah the Unique I've used before. It's great but a tad too pricey.

 

Oh? Unfortunately I thought it was the best value one too. Certainly cheaper than the Martin alternatives & I don't know of any others that will deliver what you are demanding. There are undoubtedly some really cheap 'disco' market things out there but I really can't see them being either able to output enough or be reliable for pro use. Mineral oil machines would be minimum 3x price.

 

I honestly think you need to rethink budget if this is what you want to achieve.

 

Be cautious of the Le Maitre machines. These are unusual in that they are the only manufacturer to use a sugar-based solution for smoke generation. This potentially = sticky residue in a small club environment & therefore worse than either glycol or oil. But many people do like them. Just make sure to get a demo to see if it can give the type of atmosphere you want if the price is attractive.