Positioning of lights in Schools

[Jambo_UK]

Thanks for all the help everyone

 

from

 

Jambo

[TomLyall]

any student taking an A level in performing arts is expected to have some practical rigging and derigging, focusing and lx control experience. im not entirely sure how a school/college which operated a strict safety policy would complete this as sending an entire class on a HSE training course is neither cheap nor viable.

 

although I think it would be best to erect a small, low level truss to allow the students to rig/derig without ever working at height... only students who the technician decides is compitant and sensiable enough will be allowed to actually rig, or he'll just do it himself.

 

im 14 now btw, and ive been rigging at school now, I have to be supervised by our technician but other than that its left to my common sense

[jagardner1984]

The basic rules that apply for adults also apply to minors. Whatever you do, you must do safely, and with reference to current legislation.

 

Therefore you have to go into the legal mindfield that talks of Competent Persons and It is advisable.

 

When at school, no PPE was ever provided, we used to work off ladders, work at height under 16 and all sorts of other stuff that is frowned on by the HSWA and LOLER.

 

A few points:

 

The breaks in legislation seem to be:

 

A blanket ban for those under 16 on doing certain tasks

 

The facility to work supervised between 16 and 18

 

Allowed to work Solo only when properly trained when 18.

 

If you are under 16, unless the school or organisation have specific permission from the LEA, you cannot:

 

1. Work at Height above 3m.

2. Carry more than nominal loads (A Profile Lantern is not a Nominal Load)

3. Work without PPE.

 

At 16, you may undertake supervised training by a competent person, and then, supervised, you may:

 

1. Work at heights greater than 3m

2. Carry "Suitable Loads"

3. Work with PPE.

 

When 18, you may work solo once properly trained.

 

If your "employer", the school, does not do this then they are in violation of the HSWA,

 

I agree with one of the previous posts: Professional Theatre has cleaned up its act a great deal, albeit having been dragged by the arm to do so.

 

Youth Theatre has many shocking practices that come from ignorance rather than intent, and it is about time that they were educated how to do things properly.

[Ike]

If you are under 16, unless the school or organisation have specific permission from the LEA, you cannot:

 

<snip>

 

3. Work without PPE.

As far as I understand health and safety law if a job requires PPE all employees must be provided with it.

Anyone under 16 is not allowed to do anything other than 'light work' which does not include anything requiring PPE.

[jagardner1984]

I think I have to backtrack and say you are right on this one. However, there would nothing in the law to stop a minor from being in the presence of dangerous work taking place - in which case, for example if someone were rigging a bar overhead, then appropriate PPE, i.e. Hard Hats, should be worn whatever the age of the employee, like you say.

 

An interesting fact sheet

 

Health and Safety in the Performing Arts

[Chris Higgs]

Check Regulation 19 of the ACoP for the Management Regs. 1999.

 

A lot of this 'safety' advice although well intentioned, I am sure, is extremely speculative and often misleading, IMHO.

 

Get the school/college/LEA to tell you what you can do before you start even thinking about it. You may not even be insured, never mind being outside the law.

 

They may well be the employer and they are in control of the premises and have a duty of care.

[jagardner1984]

Insurance is an extremely important one, I guess.

 

Are backstage areas covered (normally) by public liability insurance or is it just FOH areas.

 

The points I made, and have been lambasted for doing so, are observations of what I have experienced fairly recently in a school environment.

 

Part of the problem is that it is very difficult to get a concrete, you can do this, you can't do that - the law is very vague, because much of it was not written specifically for theatre, and theatre is a specific occurence.

 

Does anyone have a definitive piece of legislation to look at on this one, I would be very interested to find it, as I have tried in vain to do so - or is it just a local question - so there are no definites?

[S.M]

We always had this argument at school.....

 

A student is allowed to use a welder, industrial sewing machine, drill, band saw and other such dangerous equiptment and tools as well as highly corrosive chemicals and extremely hot flames.

 

All of the above could potentially cause accidents up to the extremity of death and yet a student is not allowed to climb a ladder or tower even with the correct safety equiptment. I am always more safety conscious whilst up a ladder about falling or dropping items than when I am using a sewing machine or saw.

 

I could never win my case as I was a child and they were adults. And we all know adults are always right.

[mutley]

I have just been given a rollocking today, for allowing a 15 year old (year 11) pupil to climb an 8ft set of ladders in order to focus lights for his GCSE Technical Drama (Lighting) course.

 

When I say "allowing", I mean footing the 'Class 1' A-frame Zarges ladders, and directly supervising him!

 

This has been going on for the past 'however many' years, and nobody has ever 'disallowed' it, or said that pupils can't use ladders. (incidentally, this lad is more mature and has more common sense than a lot of adults twice his age!)

 

If they're not allowed to use ladders, how can they be expected to gain experience of the practical side of lighting, a lot of which is at bar level? (lighting bar, not the local pub! :) ) Theory is all very well and good, but is only half of the story. :D

 

This apparently sudden change in rules now means that in order for the 4 or 5 drama groups (each doing different plays), to get the lighting they each want, I will be spending about a week up the ladders, (as a trained and competent person!) trying to make sense of a 2 dimensional paper sketch which uses just about every light they can think of, (the usual, "I'll get more marks for more lights" mentality), or trying to follow directions from a pupil with "limited ability" :) :( (although, having a reason for not allowing this kind of 'liability' pupil up the ladders can be useful. "You're not going up there because you're a muppet" tends to get the Politically Correct Brigade's knickers in a twist for discriminating against idiots!!)

 

The pupil involved even went home after school to bring back a written disclaimer from his father, but this was irrelevant.

The argument given by the Head, was that only people trained in the use of ladders and working at height should be using ladders. OK, I can understand that in the current "everybody sues everybody they can" claim society we live in....

 

So, my idea is this:

After obtaining written parental consent before even allowing any pupil to take the subject ("I understand this subject involves a practical element, and I fully understand the potential risk in the use of ladders and working at height..."), and train a member of staff up to be qualified as a trainer and give formal, recognised training to the pupils prior to doing ANY ladder work, along with a certificate which they can take with them when they leave.

 

However, this would not work if the minimum legal age limit is 16, because some pupils don't turn 16 until after they leave!

 

So, is there, or is there not, a definitive LEGAL MINIMUM AGE LIMIT for using ladders? (By Act of Parliament, not local council or LEA)

[AndyJones]

Who is going to foot the ladder for you?

[GreatBigHippy]

At our school our insurance covers work done by students as long as supervision and risk assessments are in place. Although I reserve the right to not allow anyone who shows that they cannot be trusted to go up ladders.

How about costing up the crew costs from a local company to replace the student crew and presenting the bill.

I am lucky to have a supportive department and run my own tech crew (which may even get more exciting in the future).

Unfortunately the buck stops with the head and it is your job to provide evidence that what you want to do is not putting anyone at risk.

Good luck,

The Hippy

[steve h]

At our school our insurance covers work done by students as long as supervision and risk assessments are in place.

 

Last time I checked all schools in the UK were insured by Zurich as these were the only people who would insure schools. I found this out when an "industry health and safety advisor" came onto the schools governors, read the insurance documents all the way through and insisted we went from using zarges to a scaff tower with airbags round the outside...and the next event he also got the edge of the stage taped white so it can be seen, as well as a second line put in so they know when they are getting to the edge. We also had to put the thin mats that were used in PE along the front incase anyone did fall off the stage (about 75cm high).

 

Im interested to read this as ive been told I cant send pupils up ladders because of the insurance! Last year I even had difficulty sending a former sixth former (who had onyl just left!) up a scaff tower to follow spot the show. Eventually this was allowed after parental permission and luckily has set a presedent that I can have students doing this!

 

As for all other working at heights im the only one who goes up ladders or scaff, ladders will get footed by students. Mutley asked how student scan learn without going up ladders...more importantly how do you keep them interested when all they are doing is cutting gel, cable runs, footing ladders etc all day and not doing what they see as the interesting stuff up the ladder.

 

Steve

[GreatBigHippy]

Im interested to read this as ive been told I cant send pupils up ladders because of the insurance!

 

I'm afraid I can't provide you the info as all I did was ask the people in charge and got the answer back that it was ok. I don't even know who our insurers are, never came up!

[Stutwo]

We also had to put the thin mats that were used in PE along the front incase anyone did fall off the stage (about 75cm high).

 

I work in a performing arts college and that made my jaw drop. We have always been a common sense workplace with regulations in place, and this kind of advice worries the hell out of me knowing there are people who think like this out there.

[steve h]

should point out that the airbags/mat story and insurance information came from a previous school and not my curent employment :P