Industry Training

[itinerant baker]

I am not saying that everyone should have a degree but that everyone should have some form of formal training be it degree or work based to a point that both are comparable.

 

I'd be tempted to go the complete opposite way - if you're going to do anything get rid of all the courses that lead to a qualification, that way everyone will go into the industry at the cable coiling level, everyone will be learning on the basis of how much they're actually willing to learn as they go, and it'll provide a level playing field regardless of academic ability or lack thereof.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Of course I'm being entirely hypothetical here and playing devils advocate, but it would certainly go some way to emptying the Blue Room of 14 year olds calling themselves lighting directors.

[Simon Lewis]

Paul,

 

I read the article with some interest....

 

Many of the sentiments are ones which have surfaced here, or which are prevalent in the industry. There's no clear cut answer, but I did feel that the lack of differentiation between education and training was unhelpful.

 

I may have quoted this before, but I found this analogy useful...

 

Imagine you are a parent and your impressionable young daughter comes home from school. Would you rather she told they'd had sex education or sex training that day? ;-)

 

The LSI article was very wide ranging, and whilst not querying the validity of any training opportunity, it's pretty hard to compare a three year BA or BSc programme with a half day product familiarisation course.

 

The truth is, we need all of these approaches. Furthermore, each approach will generate some who understand and apply the material, and quickly see further areas of synthesis and evaluation, others will simply not understand, or just forget.

 

It doesn't matter if it's the half day attendee or graduate, if they cannot use the learning opportunity effectively, then it's likely to result in surface learning that has little impact. Hopefully, the graduate will have studied something of "how to learn", but that might be wishful thinking on my part :-)

 

I'll try and respond to LSI if I get the chance...

 

Simon

[Tom R]

I'd be tempted to go the complete opposite way - if you're going to do anything get rid of all the courses that lead to a qualification, that way everyone will go into the industry at the cable coiling level, everyone will be learning on the basis of how much they're actually willing to learn as they go, and it'll provide a level playing field regardless of academic ability or lack thereof.

 

The thing is...we are learning the 'cable coiling level' whilst being at univesity. The willingness to learn is the same, if you dont get off your backside and make an effort then you wont get much out of the degree, if however you make good use of your time then you will learn a lot. I dont think you would find a university student who would suggest that they have more experience than someone who has been in the industry for years, that would be foolish, but its one more foot up the ladder. I have learnt a lot of fundamental things in two years that I would not have even thought about over two years of cable coiling, and some things that I have realised that 'professionals' dont seem to have grasped.

 

I would never try and put myself higher than someone with many years of experience, but at the end of my degree with three years of experience, I think that I will have had a great deal more knowledge than someone who entered the industry otherwise in that amount of time. I certainly doubt that I would have had the level of experience using digital mixing desks that I do have now. Of course this is not applicable to everyone...

[kerry davies]

There are 512,000 students in FE & HE creative skills courses, there are 6,000 job vacancies, yet the industry cannot get the staff they require. Adlib are far from the only company concerned about skills gaps between educational establishments and industry requirements. Check out http://www.ccskills.org.uk/media/cms/File/...S_ACADEMY_3.pdf to see which way things may well go. Take a look at who is supporting it. They don't think that ANY of the courses available to students provide "industry relevant skills". What do you think? May be a new thread, Bry/Paul?

Kerry

Ah Yes! See crew room thread about The Stage article, funny how the mention of £10,000,000 grabs attention.

[lightsource]

There are 512,000 students in FE & HE creative skills courses, there are 6,000 job vacancies, yet the industry cannot get the staff they require. Adlib are far from the only company concerned about skills gaps between educational establishments and industry requirements.

 

Ok, I've waited a long time to respond to Paul's original post, but there's something you're all missing, and that's the difference between 'old school' and the 'current alternatives' Courses.

 

Adlib was created in 1984, according to their website. In that decade, there were no formal training or qualifications, if you 'wanted to do it', you had to do it off your own back, no qualifications available as far as I'm aware. I built my first electronic project when I was 11 years old, I did not need a school, college or university to teach me electronics, I did it myself. Most qualifications were useless, in this industry.

That was the 'ilk' of the 80's child. We did it ourselves and learned through our mistakes.

 

I think that this is what Andy Dockerty was mainly referring to, that pupils today, seem to expect to be taught, qualifications in general are far inferior to 80's tuition ( GCSE's vs O Level anyone). Most pupils nowadays expect to be taught their subject, rather than getting off their arses, and learning it for themselves. How many 'course' pupils have had the desire to get a book on Lighting design out of the Library (Do they know what a library is ?)

 

So, current qualifications, what are they worth, would I hire a qualified LD...... No, I would hire an experienced or knowledgeable LD, I would have no interest in their qualifications, my only interest would be what fixtures / desks they have actual knowledge with.

 

Experience is the key.. It was the only option in the 80's, for the 'old school' members, it is still the only option now, over 20 years on.

 

3 years on a course, or 3 years working in the industry - I know who I would choose..... :)

 

Edited tor typo's. although I'm sure the slaughter will happen soon :)

[mwolfenden]

Hi

 

I am fairly new to blue room so hardly ever post. In this case, I feel that there is a strong distinction between industry related courses (degrees or otherwise) and perhaps unrelated (or distantly related) further education.

 

I completely agree with previous posts about college students who are lying about their abilities or perhaps not understanding their abilities in the practical side of things. I wanted to know what people here thought about studying unrelated degrees, which are not specific to the industry?

 

I personally am currently studying Engineering at a good university (will be specialising in Aeronatical next year), but have a strong interest both in lighting and sound (and have had for a long time). I have not yet made any decision over whether I am likely to try to enter the industry as a career or keep it as more of a hobby, however if I did decide to enter the industry it is my belief that the education I am currently getting would be largely benefitial to me.

 

It is of course different for every individual, but I believe that for me and most others getting a degree has a huge impact on you as a person. It enforces maturity and trains you in a huge degree of practical things - from time management, learning skills, writing/numeric skills and even simply to realising that you will only achieve as much as you push yourself to - if you are lazy and not that bothered then they don't waste their time - you just get kicked out of the course. My degree, in addition, gives me a good grounding in electronics, power, structures, materials, control, signal processing etc... all of which are good background knowledge for understanding how equipment in the industry works. Not essential to be able to use the equipment - but perhaps useful when something goes wrong or understanding why it does what it does - one of the most important things in my opinion.

 

I have taught myself all of the practical and lighting/sound specific knowledge that I have and have also learnt from working a few times with a production company, being tech director for a college ball and casual teching at the local Corn Exchange. I by no means believe I have extensive practical knowledge and am always eager to learn - often bugging people to tell me how things work, or simply watching the experienced people do what they are good at. I have bought myself books and ask questions as well as booking myself on an occasional training course (so far D&B Acoustics Seminar, Avo Pearl Basic and a Live Sound Mixing one) - so I'm not sure that the 80's method of learning is necessarily out of the window.

 

Sorry for the long post - I guess I just wanted to say that I don't think people should automatically assume college/university trained people are worse than people who have gone straight into the industry at a younger age. I think it is 100% down to the individual - their motivations, abilities, experience, education, attitude, desire for knowledge etc... and perhaps having a longer education may help a lot of people tune some of these... The student has to be aware, though, that it does not magically give you experience - you stil have to go out and get this during and afterwards...

[paulears]

The problem with education is that the system has had huge numbers of (being honest) totally useless and disinterested people going into it, alongside the really good ones, for quite a few years. I've seen loads of my old college students go off to uni, and some I knew, really 'knew' would come away with top class degrees and would have worked really hard, much on their own initiative and earned their qualification big time! Others I knew were totally and utterly useless and would drop out and not graduate. The trouble is, many of them did! I simply can't believe they changed that much. I suspect it's a combination of the actual university, and the course. I don't know enough about engineering to comment on if the same things happen? The qualification itself tells you so little about the person. Most people have no idea at all what the 'degree holder' actually studied, or can really do.

[AndrewR]

Its interesting to read this thread....

 

When I left college I knew there was no point in going to university... I knew I lacked the motivation to make it worthwhile (or cost effective!).

 

Over the years since I haven't run into that many graduates in relavant subjects. The first shocked me. She was very recently graduated, sent out to take over from me at a hotel in greece (with a fairly good setup, and review type shows). I spent a week doing a hand over, she shadowed me constantly. All the time I was asking if she had questions etc. For my last night I asked if she was happy to operate the show, I would sit nearby but she would do everything. She agreed and I got to sit there in horror as she just sat like a lemon and did absolutely nothing... Just sat and stared at the equipment looking confused. For some reason that didn't fill me with confidence when it came to graduates.

 

The second graduate I ran into was from America... She (I seem to meet lots of female grads) was very competent, but had huge holes in her knowledge as her degree was actually considered a "fine art" and hence the actual useful bits and bobs, like electrical basics, or equipment maintaince handn't been part of the course. She is no doubt going to be a good lighting designer (She's off to Carnege Mellon to do Post grad lighting this year), but she seemed surprised by the level of technical knowledge I had picked up in the brief experince I had when we first met.

 

Another Grad I know, turned down a job they were offered, despite minimal experince, as senior tech. Apparently they thought as a grad they deserved more money (and it wasn't an unfair amount of money)

 

It seems interesting that in my experince grads only go places 30% of the time.... And whilst I agree that there are things you can learn at Uni that you may never get a chance to do in the real world, I would rather trust someone with real experince.

The biggest surprise was going round one of the biggest post grad lighting courses in America and being frankly astonished at the students lack of real world knowledge... Yes they already had skills I really envy, as well as access to some exellent equipment (I sat in on a demo of EOS, where refreshingly they didn't tell porkys about the desk being finished. unlike some demos I've had!) But they had no idea of the real range of equipment out there or its cost! I really envy my friend, shes going to be getting far more quailty design experince than I'm likely to in the next 3 years... But I'm left convinced that I will still have a big advantage over her in every other field. Who knows, maybe she'll hire me as her master LX!

 

In America they at least have the excuse that no-one will take you seriously till you have the right bit of paper. But over here I'm yet to be convinced that anyone gets more out of a degree than someone with a few years experience could get out of a few weeks of training. Heck, the 3 days of training I had with Mr Higgs gets me more respect than the BTEC !

[dbuckley]

The underlying problem is that theatre is a craft industry, and the time proven way of people becoming craftsmen is through the apprentice process, whereby one starts out as an apprentice, and then progresses to a journeyman, and several years later achieves the moniker of master craftsman. The essence of an apprenticeship is actually doing the job under supervision. You just don't get that in an institution of learning.

[J Pearce]

I think there is much to be said for having academic training for careers within our industry (though I could be said to have a biased viewpoint), but within practical hands-on experience.

 

Before going to uni, I worked many many amdram, youth, and school/college productions and a few pro/semi pro productions.

Now, whilst at uni, I'm working as a casual at a major producing house.

 

I have learnt far more out in the field than I have at uni, but uni is teaching me things that allow me to sidestep out of the industry should I get bored of it or become injured in a way that would limit my work in the industry. It is also teaching me the maths and science that explain, back-up and further the knowledge I have from my practical work.

 

I could have gone straight in and worked up the industry fresh from A levels; but I'm an academically minded guy, and didn't want to miss the opportunity to stretch my mind before life gets too tied down to do so.

 

I agree that far too many people are going to uni as that is what is expected, and also because career guidance in school and college is hopeless.

[wako_jacko]

don't wan't to start a fireball here but - most of the courses people seem to be talking about arn't acredited by NCDT, CDS etc. and jpearce - if I am correct your couse is not accredited by these, and you don't get equity or bectu membership once you have finished - which in my mind means it is not a course designed for those who want to go into theatre etc. (I'm not saying it's a bad course just stating facts) unlike courses at accreditied places such as mountivew, RADA, CSSD to name but a few - all of the graduates from these I am sure will have the skils to hold thier own in any enviroment.

[Simon Lewis]

don't wan't to start a fireball here ...

 

No fireball... just need to state a few facts. Jon's course isn't specifically designed as a theatre course. As you rightly point out, there are many institutions that provide dedicated theatre courses, have appropriate accreditation and do an admirable job.

 

In the case of Sound, Light & Live Event Technology the remit is far more on the technology of the live event. Therefore, it is accredited by the Institution of Engineering and Technology (i.e. the merged IEE and IIE) and provides the academic basis for professional Incorporated Engineer status.

[w/robe]

courses at accreditied places such as mountivew, RADA, CSSD to name but a few - all of the graduates from these I am sure will have the skils to hold thier own in any enviroment.

 

No, as a lecturer at one of the institutions listed I would disagree with you, they have good students and bad students just like everyone else.

 

What I would advise any potential employers to do is to look at the grade the student attained and to get a reference, preferably over the phone so that you can discuss your requirements, from the relevant tutor.

[lightsource]

Just to add to my post, on this topic, and after reading all the replies....

 

My biggest 'gripe' with most qualified students, is that they lack the experience of the diversity of equipment / venues out in the market-place, most of their knowledge ls limited to the gear they use in-house, and the 'house' they use it in.

 

However, I must now admit that I have now taken on someone who is doing an industry 'course', and have found him to be extremely useful, I can leave him to (competently) do the 'standard tasks' such as mic setup / placement, DI, multicore, stage stuff etc, whilst I focus on FOH system setup etc.

 

A real bonus. :)

[GregB]

I cant help but join the fray...

The underlying problem is that theatre is a craft industry, and the time pr oven way of people becoming craftsmen is through the apprentice process, whereby one starts out as an apprentice, and then progresses to a journeyman, and several years later achieves the moniker of master craftsman. The essence of an apprenticeship is actually doing the job under supervision. You just don't get that in an institution of learning.

 

I feel that my experience of learning was an essential balanced mix of both 'classroom' based learning and learning on the job. This learning is an on going experience as has been stated by others.

 

I am now in the privileged position of TM of an arts centre/theatre, and having a regular timetable of students working in my area, on top of which I do a fair amount of freelance work from roadie to consultant.

 

By far the best form of educating (particularly) our young people is the apprentice route. They need the 'classroom' learning experience in small doses to understand the back ground of what your doing and why. They desperately need the hands on experience and challenge of a real LIVE environment.

 

The educational trust I am employed by succeedes in turning adolescent hoody wearing scumbags (not really how I feel about them, just an impression you might get at first encounter!) into young people with a understanding of what it is they need to do to succeed in any chosen 'carrer' path.

 

My students who choose theatre as a way forward do learn the rudamentries of a DMX system, how to hard/soft patch rig, focus , plot,..... but you cant do all that in a class room, you cant do it all in the work place, not and be preared to make a mistake, learn from it, and it be OK!