Industry Training

[paulears]

LSI often reprint items from the Blue Room, but I've copied some things from this months magazine that may come as a shock to our younger members thinking abut wha to do ater school/college.

 

A few years ago I first bumped into Andy Dockerty, the Managing Director of Liverpool's Adlib-Audio at a Soundcraft training event, and a few months later again at LIPA. He struck me as a down to earth kind of bloke, passionate about the industry he works in. I have taken a few of his comments to reprint here because it is nice to see a major company, and quite big employer say these things out loud.

 

He said:

 

"One thing that I am very keen to do is head off as many kids as I possibly can from taking the college route. We do have quite a few people here from LIPA and Liverpool Community College, but they wil all tell you, more or less, they have wasted three years of their life attaning a pice of paper that, when they walk in here or anywhere else in the industry, isn't worth anything at all. They might be able to give me a brilliant description of the polar pattern of a microphone but they can't even put up a mic stand properly or wind a cable."

 

LIPA, a bit further down the article make their comment - so it's kind of balanced - but it is very rare for industry big players to speak this honestly.

 

Page 94 of this months magazine hold some more info - but sorry, you have to buy this mag, and this article is not on-line.

[Jivemaster]

College would be fine if you also got 80 hours a week of real practical experience, and worked with a mixed age group, honing technical and personal skills.

[Cougar]

His comments might be valid but it would seem he has had a very bad experience with college students or is exaggerating to some extent. I know a large number of people who can coil a cable without any problems who have never had any training or worked in any part of the industry. So to imply that a student from an industry related course finishes with that low a practical ability seems far fetched. Of course as a student on an industry related course (albeit at degree level rather than college level) what my view is goes without saying but I would question his views and claim they are probably equally biased in the opposite direction. I haven't had a chance to read the article in full yet but I certainly will (when the horrendous post system in Derby catches up and it actually turns up)

[Peter Chivers]

Regulars on the Blue Room will be aware that I don't join in threads frequently. This is partly due to the respect I have for the volume of knowledge and experience in here. However, the comments noted by Paulears trigger a very strong fellow feeling in me.

Please let me give you some background. I have been involved in sound and lighting since the early 1970's, at school, and am self employed as a (primarily) sound and lighting engineer with my own hire business. Like many of you who responded to the recent poll on 'freelancers' if I don't do the job right, customers won't come back and I cannot make a living at the jab.

Last year a young man applied to my colleague who also runs a music shop for a job. After looking at his CV and an interview, my colleague said that he felt the young man was not suitable for the retail job but would be of great interest to me on the hire business. I spoke to him and he could certainly talk the talk, he appeared well grounded in lighting with a reasonable knowledge of sound.

I asked him to come out with me and a regular roadie on a PA hire. When we turned up to the event, we had to wait until a conference session finished until we could start bringing in the rig from the van and setting up for the band. As is not unusual, the requirements of the job were more than we were led to expect, although I had everything I needed to cover the actual needs (been there before, got the T Shirt!). It turned out that the AV company were leaving some lights in to cover the evening's entertainment but were not suppling an operator. I had no problem with the young man operating the lights during the evening, but as we were hired to do the sound, I started to get annoyed when he kept darting off hassling the AV company about lighting when he was supposed to be setting up PA. When it came to the actual gig, he also did not display a good feel for actually operating event lighting, which he had indicated he should have had from his CV and 'talk'. This led to me having a quiet talk with him.

The next gig, we were hired in to supply both sound and lights - in the latter case a rig of both Par Cans and moving heads. On this job I had booked him in to both act as a roady and operate the lights. On this gig, both my colleague and myself were working, which ended up being just as well. Again during the setup, he did not follow instructions but wanted to go haring off doing his own thing on lighting, so making clear that he had not learned any team discipline from his time at college. Also when it came to programming and operating, although he had indicated he had a lot of experience programming moving lights and operating generics, this was not born out by his performance. I ended up leaving my colleague on sound and taking over lighting responsibility. Even when I was trying to tell and show the young man what he should be doing it did not seem to sink in.

He had the paper qualifications (which I actually do not) but he could not do the job. As a result of these and some other gigs, he no longer does any work for me.

 

Peter

[iamchristuffin]

Although I relaise that quite a few of (ex-) students are like that, I'd like to defend some of the students here. I'm still in compulsary education, but I have had it drilled into me not to lie about what you can and cannot do, as I'm sure others have. If I don't know how to do something, I'll ask someone to show me how to do, and learn from watching them. Obviously this guy you are talking about shouldn't have run off when he was supposed to be working, but possibly he hadn't met the board before? I'm not saying that you're lying, just that not all of us are like this!

[Sarah]

I feel that the education route will suit some people, and not others. But, everyone shouldn't immediately write off the education route. I wasn't ready at 18 to head into the world of work and felt that LAMDA's 2 year Stage Management and Technical Theatre course was good for me. I think that as long as people don't come out of theatre school assuming that they know everything... you'll always learn more in your first two years in work after finishing training. If you do choose the education route I feel that it's important to find a course that suits you.

[dave_m]

Though sometimes education just isn't suitable for some people at all, like me. I have Aspergers Syndrome (Link), and thanks to school being genuine prats, I've ended up not beingable to work properly in a school environment, meaning staying through 6th form/college/uni would be incredibly stupid. There are soem people out there who go straight into work becasue they think they can talk there way through the industry. The rest of us might not actually be able to carry on at school, and might be workign towards other qualifications in a different way. Sometimes, people just need to take things into account.

[Cougar]

I may have expressed this opinion on this forum before but cant remember so if I have I apologise.

 

This country (particularly the government) is obsessed with education and force (through policy and lack of alternatives) people through, even if it is not the correct route for them. Now of course it looks bad on the schools and colleges when they fail so they give them lots of help (often to the detriment of other peoples education) and you end up in the situation described above, with so called qualified people not being any good. The answer is and always will be to do both. Educational based training taught properly will always give a broader background knowledge than the same amount of time spent working because you are not doing the job you are learning why and how to do the job. What people often forget is training is not experience and come out of a course saying I can do X, Y or Z when in reality they know how to do X, Y or Z in the environment they were taught in (which I am sure all will agree are two very different things). A good course will create a realistic environment to learn in but will only manage that if it only accepts those who are suited to education. Which is why we as an industry need to ensure there is a work based training option for those where education is not suitable.

 

Having spent the last few years doing a degree I am of the opinion that it was worth it and I know for a fact I have learnt far far more than I could ever have learnt working full time for three years and probably more than I would have on work based training. Now I fully accept that three years on a degree is not the same as experience but the experience I will now go on to get will without question mean more because of the background knowledge that is behind it.

 

What people must remember when employing people straight out of education (particularly at college level rather than graduate level) is that they are not employing experienced professionals. They are employing people who should have a good background knowledge and are probably relatively good at what you ask them to do but may not do it as professionally as you would expect or know what needs doing all of the time.

[Peter Chivers]

Although I relaise that quite a few of (ex-) students are like that, I'd like to defend some of the students here. I'm still in compulsary education, but I have had it drilled into me not to lie about what you can and cannot do, as I'm sure others have. If I don't know how to do something, I'll ask someone to show me how to do, and learn from watching them. Obviously this guy you are talking about shouldn't have run off when he was supposed to be working, but possibly he hadn't met the board before? I'm not saying that you're lying, just that not all of us are like this!

I run a small business and rely on my (small) crew to pull their weight. This young man, over more jobs than I've quoted above, did not and had seriously inflated his knowledge and abilities. Nor when I tried to show him how to do the job, was he prepared to take in what I was trying to pass on. I would have expected someone coming from qualifying on a college course to have been truthful about his abilities, and also prepared to carry on learning, and was seriously disappointed.

Peter

[iamchristuffin]

OK, you have a point there! IMO, He sounds like a bit of an idiot, as, obviously, knowledge is always useful, and there's always more to learn!!

[Cougar]

This young man, over more jobs than I've quoted above, did not and had seriously inflated his knowledge and abilities. Nor when I tried to show him how to do the job, was he prepared to take in what I was trying to pass on. I would have expected someone coming from qualifying on a college course to have been truthful about his abilities, and also prepared to carry on learning, and was seriously disappointed.

 

That is fine but is not a reason to assume all students are like that. Although I do agree with you to some extent. The few college students I have met have given me the impression of a level of immaturity and arrogance. Meaning that within this industry at least maybe we need to ensure that people are trained to the equivalent of university level. I am not saying that everyone should have a degree but that everyone should have some form of formal training be it degree or work based to a point that both are comparable.

Also I feel everyone needs to take a view that you can always learn something new from everyone you meet be it your young man teaching you why you don't do something in a certain way or an expert in a field teaching you a new skill or new way of doing things, we should always be looking with an unbiased view to see what we can learn and what we can teach. From my experience (albeit fairly short) people who I know are less experienced than me and less knowledgeable have taught me things because everyone has had a different experience.

[Peter Chivers]

That is fine but is not a reason to assume all students are like that.

I apologise if I gave that impression, I have not made that assumption, but was quoting a specific set of occurrences which tied in with the OP.

Although I do agree with you to some extent. The few college students I have met have given me the impression of a level of immaturity and arrogance.

I am glad to be able to say that I have had contact with other students who had a much more mature approach and one, at least, has gone on to work for a much larger company, to my regret ;)

Meaning that within this industry at least maybe we need to ensure that people are trained to the equivalent of university level. I am not saying that everyone should have a degree but that everyone should have some form of formal training be it degree or work based to a point that both are comparable.

The difficulty is quantifying work based training against a degree equivalent,

Also I feel everyone needs to take a view that you can always learn something new from everyone you meet be it your young man teaching you why you don't do something in a certain way or an expert in a field teaching you a new skill or new way of doing things, we should always be looking with an unbiased view to see what we can learn and what we can teach. From my experience (albeit fairly short) people who I know are less experienced than me and less knowledgeable have taught me things because everyone has had a different experience.

I have often told people that the day I think I have nothing left to learn is the day I should get out of the business si I totally agree with you. This is one reason why I read the threads on the blue room regularly, but post infrequently.

Have fun everyone.

Peter

[Cougar]

I apologise if I gave that impression,

No need to apologise I didn't get that impression although in hindsight I can see why you thought I had, I probably should have phrased that differently.

The difficulty is quantifying work based training against a degree equivalent,

True and I have not got a clue where you would start doing so, but I am sure it must be possible to come up with a way that would work.

I have often told people that the day I think I have nothing left to learn is the day I should get out of the business

Now that is a very good way of looking at it. I think it is an approach I will copy if you don't mind me stealing it.

 

Evan

[w/robe]

I'm of the opinion that you can get good and bad people out of either system and therefore did not bother posting.

 

But this...

The difficulty is quantifying work based training against a degree equivalent,

True and I have not got a clue where you would start doing so, but I am sure it must be possible to come up with a way that would work.

....you think?

 

In a formal education environment, where a small number of students are taught the same subject by one member of staff, assessment criteria and marking parity are a real headache. There is no pretence that a degree from one institution will be the same as one from another even in the same subject, and this is not a problem as it leads to a range of courses producing people this differing skills, just keeping marks an track in one institution is bad enough.

 

Now the problem, how would you begin to standardise training and assessment procedures across every venue in the country? One persons opinion of 'good focusing' may be very different from another and this may be down to time and equipment constraints as much as skill, who is going to decide whether a certain level has been reached and how that compares with some one in another venue at the other end of the country.

 

If the decision of competence is going to be taken by the trainees superior with no reference to accepted formalised standards then that is exactly what happens at the moment as when you get a reference form a former employer you are getting their opinion of the competence of that individual.

[Cougar]

Sorry I was not talking about making all courses the same that would be pointless (ignoring the difficulties in doing it) as it will take away from the choice and competition that I feel is necessary to make a good selection of learning environments. Thats not what I meant to say, as an example take graduates in a subject from two universities you would not expect both of them to know the same things or even to be as good as each other but you would expect both to be competent in whatever they do. You would not even expect both to be equally qualified you would expect more from a Cambridge or oxford graduate than you would from another graduate but you would be within your rights to expect both. Getting training in this industry to that point where you can expect all people to reach a certain minimum standard is I think possible. Employers will then learn over a period of time which establishments go above and beyond that minimum standard much as employers in other fields know certain places are better than others at their speciality.

 

Evan