mackerr Posted January 28, 2007 Share Posted January 28, 2007 I may be wide of the mark here but :-What if you are using phantom power ? Surely one will need some form of isolatiion to stop the phantom power from one desk trying to to get into the inputs of the other desk ? e.g a 1:1 transformer .Why do you think that? Mac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mal421 Posted January 28, 2007 Share Posted January 28, 2007 I was allowing for the fact that people with more experience of this situation than me could have a perfectly valid reason for not using transformers on splits . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob_Beech Posted January 28, 2007 Share Posted January 28, 2007 It is possible that a passive split can lead to problems if phantom power is supplied from both consoles. Its been known to cause quite severe issues with some boards but I can't see there being a problem here. Decide who sends phantom power and stick to it. I'm in favour of the guy in monitor world, he/she can see what each input is and can apply phantom power as necessary. Although thinking about it, isn't it a global switch on that desk? You can buy inline units that supply phantom power to individual channels but these will of course cost extra money. As we can see, there is no super cheap way of doing the job properly so to speak. Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulears Posted January 28, 2007 Share Posted January 28, 2007 The reason that running two inputs in parallel, with one supplying phantom and the other not, doesn't usually cause problems is that any device that is designed to have phantom powering facilities, has blocking components, usually just capacitors that prevent the power on the mic cable getting to where it shouldn't be! The only cause for concern is when plugging in or disconnecting a plug. As the two pins may connect/disconnect at slightly different times, for a fraction of a second voltage is only present on one leg. Making a rather big pop through the system at best, and at worst, damaging the input channel (I did damage a Soundtracs studio desk in this way, once). If the Y-split is connected, or the split multi is connected before power is applied, there aren't any issues that cause problems. Straight passive splits are perfectly effective. Transformer splits are more expensive, but do offer some extra 'security', although they are not the magical devices some people imagine. People often imagine they protect from things like cable shorts, after the split, but shorting one of the transformer outputs does affect the others. What it does do is prevent DC problems that often arise when connecting kit together. There is some really useful material here from Jensen transformers, and Sowter have some sueful info too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
niclights Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 Just on a quick revisit.. RE: Direct outs. Yes, sorry, this was assuming they were pre-everything, which of course they are not! As for phantom, normally you make a decision which desk is providing at the start of a show, but this is really only to avoid confusion. If everything is wired correctly there should be no danger. Commonly I find that FOH has to provide since mons will not always be using all channels (ie overheads). However, I guess this is rather more advanced than the application here! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob_Beech Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 A valid point there about the monitor desk not using all the channels, something I hadn't really given much thought. I've always used the monitor board to supply phantom power for the reasons I explained above, but that is a valid point. So naturally its a decision that depends on the situation and has to be made at the time. As for Direct outs, these are a line level out, I'll assume they are balanced, there would be a lot of messing about with adapters and the like getting to the multicore and then into line inputs on the FOH board. Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Boogie Man Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 Just wondering, does anyone make a stage box that was just say a metre of multicore with twin outs? That way everthing in could be sent out to two seperate snakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Langfeld Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 Why would you want such a thing? If I've understood you right, you'd then have a multi terminating in a stage box from FOH, and a multi terminating in another stage box from monitor world, both going from XLR tails to another stage box where you'd patch your mics? Seems like a rather inefficient way of doing it to me. Might as well just build a racked stage box with multipin outs for FOH & mons (& maybe recording/broadcast if you need it). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Alcock Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 Proel, VDC and Klotz all do stage boxes with monitor splits, but it's fully professional kit (as opposed to the plethora of low-cost Chinese stageboxes that everyone does), and is priced accordingly. Pete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 Just wondering, does anyone make a stage box that was just say a metre of multicore with twin outs? That way everthing in could be sent out to two seperate snakes. Yes, When I started out needing a monitor split I didn't build a full split snake, I just built a new stagebox. The desks I was using were a 24ch LX7 and a 24ch Spirit Monitor 8 so I built a 24ch stagebox, It has 24 XLRs in with 24 XLRs looped out. It had a 3m cable to tails which meant I could plug into my existing multi, or use it in a venue with installed multi. I also built a 20m 24ch XLR > XLR multi for the monitor desk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ynot Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 In future shows at school I would like to have one desk for monitors and one desk to control the FOH mix.Without wanting to drag this topic into another discourse on experience vs youth, can I aska simple question? Tom - Why do you want to do this?I can understand you may want to try to do what is done in pro shows and control the stage monitors differently, but could I check exactly what you're using here? If your stage monitors are simply a pair of speakers on stage front giving the talent a foldback of the music tracks or band, whatever, then can you not do this simply be sending them a feed from a couple of aux's? I don't know the Folios well enough to say whether this would be a problem, but looking at Soundcraft's own blurb there are 2 sends (swithcable pre/post fade) that you can use. (Alternatively you could use the pair of sub-group outs to feed a monitor amp). The big question is how critical is the need for full control over what the talent can hear? Are you talking about a production show which essentially needs the same mix sending to the monitors, or a live band situation that may need different feeds to different monitors (in which case the Folio is NOT the desk to achieve this!) If it is a case of trying to emulate the 'pro' way of using monitors to gain experience and you have the time, the people (remember it will need a second board op to run a second desk properly) and the additional cabling required, then fair enough - go for it. But be prepared for some headaches! :DIf it's just a bit of a fantasy you want to satisfy, then my advice would be to go for KISS (keep it simple) until some better kit becomes available. Just ten penn'orth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 Ynot, I would agree with you that it seems frightfuly bizzare to use Folio SX desks like this . However I've used these desks quite a few times, and I know the limitations. There are only 3 Auxes, 1 Pre, 1 Post, 1 Switchable. In this case, using a second desk gives someone else some operational experience, It also means you have 2 postfade auxes FOH for FX and 2 postfade auxes at Monitors for Monitors. It makes sense to start small with monitor mixing, and in a school it also reduces some of the presure on the FOH mixer. Just a thought James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mal421 Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 Trying to remember back to the murky days of college . Assuming impedances are equal would the signal at each desk be half the original signal , if so does this have any effect on the procedings ? I ask because I have never used mic splits and later this year I have a gig where I could use onstage monitor mix and it's not worth buying active splits for one gig . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 Yes, Whenever using a passive split, either with hard-wired or using a split transformer, the micropone will see a combined input impedance exual to that of all consoles used, with their associated cable, in paralel James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulears Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 Don't forget that one source feeding two destinations means some loss with or without transformers. The loss, however, is not normally a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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