Industry Professionals?

[soundo26]

Look Guys, I am a member of several forums and I am getting increasingly worried on the state of the Profession after reading yet another batch of "How do I" questions.

 

The latest refers to running video along XLR (audio) cable, this is presumably because the person asking cannot be bothered to run the correct cable for the job and wants to run the signal down an audio multicore.

 

We often have similar questions on VGA (XGA, UXGA, whatever) cabling, Video, VGA or DMX termination etc. etc.

 

I take pride in the job I do and do it well, I consider myself a Professional of about 35 years standing in this industry, in that way I enjoy what I do, but I feel Imust have a rant about this because it seems to be a constant topic.

 

The point is if you are going to do a job, for all of our sakes do it right, if you can't do it right, then get out of the industry, you are only getting us all a bad name!

 

If one of these questions is asked, I, and many other professionals here will post an answer explaining how and why this should or should not be done, explaining the relevant standards and reasons etc., only to be shot down by people claiming that they use this method or cable, bragging that they get away with "not terminating" or "running video down audio cables" or running VGA / XGA or unbalanced Audio signals down massively long runs etc. Frankly I get sick of reading it ad nauseum. As I said before, do the job right or get out.

 

The various standards we use were developed and ratified for good reasons, different connector types are used for good reasons, different cable types have different capacitances and carry different voltages etc. they are all used for good reasons and then these people want to cut across all this presumably because they are too damn lazy to do the job properly, which is presumably the reasons that we get so many posts asking "why are my DMX fixtures acting strangely" or "why is my VGA signal 40 metres away dark and fuzzy". The simple answer is that if you did it right in the first place using the correct connectors/cable/terminators etc. that you claim to get away with, you wouldn't have the problem!!

 

You have to ask yourselves the questions "Am I a Professional"??........."Do I take pride in what I do"??.............."Do I really want to be here"??.............. if you can't honestly answer yes to those questions, then you shouldn't really be in this industry and you are doing damage to the credibility of all of us.

 

So, a quick recap for those who still don't know, here are the quick answers to a few old chestnuts;

 

No, VGA/XGA etc should not be run unamplified at distances over about 5metres max.

No, Video signals should not be run along audio cables

Yes, DMX Lines should have the fixtures in series except where a proper splitter/buffer is used and the line should be terminated.

No, Microphone cable should not be used for DMX applications.

Yes, Video & VGA/XGA lines should be terminated.

Unbalanced audio signals should only be run over short distances.

yes, I know you can most often get away with something else, but the answers above are the CORRECT way of doing it!

 

I will now step back and wait for the ever present barrage of "I can get away with" comments.............

[Ynot]

Look Guys, I am a member of several forums and I am getting increasingly worried on the state of the Profession after reading yet another batch of "How do I" questions.

1. Not everyone contributing here is a professional;

2. In fact I'd say a goodly proportion are amateur;

3. BUT 'amateur' doesn't ALWAYS mean 'inexperienced' just as 'professionals' don't always have the experienced of some old-hands who've been at the volunteer game for many years;

 

So - this is not by any stretch a professional forum.

What it IS, however, is a place to learn.

As I believe has already been said elsewhere, it's not necessarily the questions asked that belie the lack of a pro attitude, though the MANNER of how such questions are asked may well do.

[broadcast_techie]

I'm not a professional yet, that's going to take a couple more years of uni to claim that, but I have and do work in professional environments, and do act accordingly. I don't for a second recommend doing any of the above mentioned video/audio cable bodges, but I do recognise that I have had to use them in desperate times.

Part of being professional is about being prepared for the situation, planning exactly what kit you need and learning from your mistakes. It also helps to understand the reasons things are done the way they are, not just be told 'don't do that'.

 

Learn the right way while you can afford the mistakes, because one bad decision could cost you your career.

 

Nite

Kris

 

edit: I've now just learnt that VGA lines need to be terminated too. <_<

 

(perhaps I can be like Google, 'all knowing')

[mumbles]

As I believe has already been said elsewhere, it's not necessarily the questions asked that belie the lack of a pro attitude, though the MANNER of how such questions are asked may well do.

This is I think the problem, and sort of what soundo was saying. Being an internet forum, there isn't a great ability to check out people are who they say they are, and this is being exploited by some (dare I say this) who seem to be trying to seek acceptance based on a cooked up skill.

 

Over a year of knowing the Blue Room, I have got to know whether someone who posts in a topic does post regularly useful information, or not. Also, I have drawn up opinions of certain members who seem to overplay their abilities, and start giving advice that they aren't qualified to give (either in that it isn't a sensible thing to post on a completely public forum, or is wrong), and those that ask questions that a quick search or contemplation would answer.

 

I do continue to use the forum, as it is a great source of knowledge, and has helped me out with many questions that I've had, but (and I don't know if it is due to me slowly turning into a grumpy young git) recently the number of topics that I look at, then just sigh and go on to another has been rising.

[Rob_Beech]

Hmmmmm (copyright Ynot.....do you accept paypal?)

 

I think I can sort of understand the point you are trying to get across. Whether you've tried to get it across the right way or not remains to be seen. If someone comes to the Blueroom to ask a question on a topic they are un familiar with then they should do so expecting varying answers from different people. Its rare there is one way of doing things and to open up a discussion that may go deeper than the original topic can mean everyone involved learns something. You may not get from 1 to 16th gear in a truck the same way as the next man but you both get there, on top of this you might do it more efficiently, the other guy might make a mess of it, but its something to learn from.

I AM a professional in the industry but I learn things everyday. I'm sure people that are also professionals in the industry be it sound like me, lighting or whatever else that have had MANY years more experience than me, still learn things every day.

 

Whilst everyone that posts here may not be a professional, I think general speaking the way most things operate on here be them industry related or not are done in a professional manner.

 

I am more than happy to explain in the best way I can anything I know to anyone who asks a question on it. Happy to help. And when the next person comes along, I'm happy to point them to the search function or if its not there explain that to them.

If someone else comes along and says something different I can only give my opinions, as can they.

 

Mumbles, its tricky to find out who people are. what they do, what they know. But how often has a silly response been made, by someone who may be in-experienced and then the topic been left? normally speaking someone more experienced will come along and make corrections or give their opinion. this by the way is the complete opposite of what soundo is saying.

 

I think anyone that has been in the industry professionally for long enough has had to do something out of the ordinary to get them out of the ****. Use a different type of cable, split or combine something that shouldn't be, not terminated something. Providing these are SAFE! there is no problem with that. IMO the fact this person can do this SAFELY to make the show go on is a sign of EXPERIENCE not lack of it.

 

 

Ynot, can I have a VAT receipt for that too please.

 

 

I also think this is probably crew room material, if anything.

 

 

Rob

[JMC]

I've often thought there was an argument for a professionals-only forum.. Provide proof of membership of BECTU, ABTT, PSA, ALD.. etc etc..

 

Yes I'm aware I'm probably going to be unpopular for saying that, but it would save me from some of the complete and utter BS we get on here <_<

[David A]

In a perfect world you're dead right, in my world with a show happening in 3 hrs time you do what needs to be done.Working with some people who do it right or don't do it at all usually means it doesn't get done.This can be sad for the kids involved.{I mainly work in under equipped schools]

[Rob_Beech]

You are quite right David, Budget is a factor here, the OP may be doing jobs where budget is rather high, some others may not, they may be scraping a profit from it, having to spend £60 a night on a few little bits here and there may cut their money in half, or much worse. (figures are random examples)

Also the time scale. We must do this like this. So the show stops. We are not talking about safety issues here, there is no excuse for something being unsafe, no matter what, but simple things that get you through a show that might not normally be the done thing, they'll get you more work as the show goes ahead.

 

 

I was about to ask David what he is doing up at this time, but then realised where he is from. Instead I'll ask myself what I am doing up at this time. I haven't even been working tonight.

 

 

Rob

[Ynot]

Hmmmmm (copyright Ynot.....do you accept paypal?)

 

can I have a VAT receipt for that too please.

<_<

I'll let you have that one on tick....!

[Bryson]

I'm guessing that this is, at least in part, a pop at me for this post. So I'll bite.

 

All of the things you mention are the proper way to do it. But to assert that you should either do things exactly the right way or not work in the industry is utter, utter nonsense. It is the very essence of this business that things only have to be "good enough". The "proper" way to build a set of the inside of a room would be to get a bricklayer to build the walls, get them plastered, get them decorated etc etc. That's obviously nonsense. It only has to be good enough to do the job. For one-off shows, you don't have to do the job to a full installation standard.

 

I note that the OP is in conferencing/events. I'm sure doing everything the "right way" is appealing when you're recharging every cost to a client with deep pockets. But for those of us who deal in more limited budgets, then cutting a couple of corners (and knowing why you are doing it - and that it's not recommended) is a valid, even the "right" thing to do.

 

Shall I get out of the industry? I'm going with no, thanks.

[Stutwo]

We seem to get one of these posts every once in a while. My instinctive reaction is to ask why on earth you don't just ignore the posts that seem to be beneath your lofty status. However, then thought kicks in and I understand why these posts happen.

 

At some stage, even the "Industry professionals" went through the process of learning and asking daft questions. If there weren't any people who had greater knowledge and patience, how would anyone attain that "rank"? As Mumbles points out, you soon get to know who is worth listening to, and who isn't. I know there are certain posters I skip past every time while there are others whose opinions and advice I would take every time.

 

If there was indeed a forum just for those working in professional theatre, I suspect their interest in a forum that might have kids or amateurs posting would fade away, which would be a huge shame.

 

As for the style of posting, the moderation and standards generally applied make this one of the most literate and readable forums anywhere on the internet.

[JimWebber]

Look Guys, I am a member of several forums and I am getting increasingly worried on the state of the Profession after reading yet another batch of "How do I" questions.

 

Yes, but surely questions like that are why the Blue Room is here?

 

The latest refers to running video along XLR (audio) cable, this is presumably because the person asking cannot be bothered to run the correct cable for the job and wants to run the signal down an audio multicore.

 

Or, it could be that they ONLY had audio cable to use?

 

The various standards we use were developed and ratified for good reasons, different connector types are used for good reasons, different cable types have different capacitances and carry different voltages etc. they are all used for good reasons...

 

Very very true, I meet far too many people, both in the theatre, and more worrying in my profession who feel that just because a connector fits, it will work!

 

...and then these people want to cut across all this presumably because they are too damn lazy to do the job properly...

 

While not defending anybody, ignorance or a small budget is not neccessarily being "Lazy"

 

...Whilst everyone that posts here may not be a professional, I think general speaking the way most things operate on here be them industry related or not are done in a professional manner...

 

Again, very very true

 

...I think anyone that has been in the industry professionally for long enough has had to do something out of the ordinary to get them out of the ****. Use a different type of cable, split or combine something that shouldn't be, not terminated something. Providing these are SAFE! there is no problem with that. IMO the fact this person can do this SAFELY to make the show go on is a sign of EXPERIENCE not lack of it.

 

Again, as long as it is safe, surely (in an emergency) poor quality video ofer an audio multi is better then no video at all?

 

 

I've often thought there was an argument for a professionals-only forum.. Provide proof of membership of BECTU, ABTT, PSA, ALD.. etc etc..

 

Yes I'm aware I'm probably going to be unpopular for saying that, but it would save me from some of the complete and utter BS we get on here <_<

 

I see where you are coming from, but two things spring to mind here,

 

1. Many constructive and useful posts on the BR come from "amateurs"

2. I am at present applying for associate membership of the ALD, and although I may have received payment for my services (Ohh Err Missus) I'm certainly not a "Professional" in the true sense of the word...

[Ynot]

I've often thought there was an argument for a professionals-only forum..

We've been down this road before.

And I'll refer to my earlier comment:

3. BUT 'amateur' doesn't ALWAYS mean 'inexperienced' just as 'professionals' don't always have the experienced of some old-hands who've been at the volunteer game for many years

Professionalism is an attitude, or an approach - it doesn't necessarily mean you ARE being paid for a job, but you treat it as though you wre.

And being paid for a job doesn't automatically mean you're going to be right all the time, or that you won't make any mistakes!

[bruce]

1. Not everyone contributing here is a professional;

2. In fact I'd say a goodly proportion are amateur;

 

As I have said on this forum before, there is a huge difference between "professional" and "professionalism". "Professional" is a financial arrangement, largely of interest to the Inland Revenue. "Professionalism" is a mindset. One does not necessarily imply the other.

[David A]

I forget to query the 5M rule for vga cable, as I have never used anything shorter than 15M and usually 30M and I have never seen shorter cables in use and never had a hint of a problem I have to query this 'statement'