Radio Mics

[willpower]

Hi guys,

 

I'm looking to buy a complete sound system for an am dram society I do - we need;

6 lapel radio mics,

12 or 16ch mixer (preferably with effects),

1000W speaker system,

1 dual cd player

1 SM58

A flight case to house it all

and various leads etc

 

My main problem is the radio mics. I've searched and searched for radio mics that will be good, but will be about £200-300 each. I have an overall budget of about £4000, and bare in mind that it is for am dram so doesnt need to be amazingly good quality, but no maplin jobies!

 

I get very confused when it gets to arial distribution systems and the such, so if anyone could enlighten me on this I'd be very greatful! I've sourced 2 fairly good deals it seems, both without power/arial distribution, but one of them seems such a good deal it's screaming at me 'WHAT'S WRONG WITH IT'!! the other is this.

 

Any comments or ideas? Anything is helpful!

 

Many thanks,

 

Will

[bruce]

this has been covered before in several other threads - let's try to keep all the info in one place.

 

Click on the "search" button above (not the google one) and search for "radio mic". It will take you to threads including:

 

Radio Mic Advice

Best value radio mic kit - What to buy?!

UHF radio mics :Which system for around £230 ex vat?

 

..and several more

[paulears]

Well, the soundlab mics are cheap, you can't say much more. The real difference with radio systems is how stable they are when used with others - now I've no doubt that finding channels for 6 (with the appropriate licence, of course) shouldn't be a problem, but they are a bit of an unknown quantity. Pretty well the Sennheiser G2, 100 series seem to be the most popular, buit at double the cost and a bit more.

 

Antenna distribution for just a few units isn't really necessary unless you are going to mount them in a rack and can't find the space for 12 antennas - then a distribution system makes sense.

 

I'd argue very strongly that 'amateur' is sub-standard, technical facilities wise - in fact, their needs are often for better kit, mainly due to lack of projection and volume from the performers.

 

The other part is that you need a 1000W PA? How did you come to work that one out? The thing with radio mics is that there is a practical limit to volume before feedback - a poorer quality PA makes this worse - volume is rarely an issue in normal venues and budget on a better desk is a useful investment - along with a decent, skilled op with good ears.

 

So let us have a bit more info. Radio mics are one of the worst things to have poor quality ones of - that's bad grammer, but sound advice.

[Bobbsy]

I was just typing up a longer message when bruce and paulears got in before me and posted most of what I was going to say.

 

The one general point I'd make is something I was told many years ago about radio mics: you can spent more than £2000 to get a radio mic system that's almost (but not quite) as good as a £10 XLR cable. The mics and RF system are not the place to skimp if you want something that will work well and last you a few years.

 

The other thing I say is that your mention of a thousand watt PA system sounds well over the top unless you're in an absolutely huge space.

 

My instinct is that, even with decent radio mics, you have an adequate budget for your needs...but you will likely want to tweak how the budget is allocated, with more going for the RF system and less power to the PA.

 

As Paul said, a bit more info and I'm sure folks here can help.

 

Bob

[Ricky]

1000W speaker system,

 

I used to work in a theatre that had a 1000w speaker system installed the amp's volume never left 50% and that was loud, Ok the place wasnt huge but is bigger than some

[willpower]

When I say 1000W I mean 500W per channel. I thought this was over the top too, but was talking it over with the treasurer who said we should up the amp power... should've stuck to my own advice! I think the real thought behind getting all 1000 watts of it was we have a big field just outside the hall, and if we were to ever do productions out there or use it for our barbecues or the such like then more power would be needed? However this is in a residential area, so not that loud.

 

I am planning to rack mount the whole unit so it's compact when we put it all away (and set it up!) easily, which is why I was thinking arial/power distribution. Also to keep it neat - it's in a church hall that's used for many other thing and we dont have a control room as such where we can permanently leave things.

 

I've been going round and round in circles finding better and worse deals for various radio mics, and nowhere except canford where you can get the arial and power distribution for the trantecs, and that seems rather expensive.Trantec and Sennheiser both seem good, but Sennheiser more expensive. I'm all open to any ideas, though I operate a lot of PA at school and elsewhere I'm no good when it comes to buying it and this has rather been landed on me. I totally agree that they do need good mics since they're amateurs.

 

What other info would be useful?

 

Many thanks,

 

Will

[StevieR]

As an alternative suggestion, Will, have you considered hiring the kit? A lot of the groups I have worked with only do a few productions throughout the year and - with varying quantities of mics required per production - they have realised that it is not economic to own them themselves. Quite often they will hire in the whole sound rig but some have purchased certain items that they use all the time (e.g. mixer, loudspeakers and amps) hiring in the additional equipment based on each productions requirements.

 

Perhaps it may be an idea to invest in a couple of good systems and hire in others as required? Also remember that it is unlikely that you will get 6 channels within the de-regulated band and so you would need to purchase a license for use (normally inclusive with hired systems).

 

To echo the responses of the others above, it is worth investing in good quality systems but these do have a higher price.

 

hth

 

Steve

[Bobbsy]

What other info would be useful?

 

Let's see.

 

-size of venue

 

-type of productions you do

 

-how you plan to place your speakers (hanging, wall mount, centre cluster or L/R, etc)

 

-gear you already own

 

-skill level of your sound team

 

I bet others will think of more!

 

Bob

[willpower]

Ok, size of venue: about 200 seater, not large I know.

 

Type of productions: Pantos every year as well as either a play or musical

 

Placing speakers: We have a big proscenium (sp?) arch in front of the stage, which would block out problems of feedback, and speakers would probably be on stands on L&R of stage.

 

Gear we already own: Up until now if we've needed a sound system we've used one of the members' system who has a fairly nice mixer, speakers, amp and cd player, and has access to radio mics (as I do from school). Up until now we've never really needed radio mics as it's such a small hall, though acoustics are not at all good. However, our 'May play' this year is Little Shop of Horrors, and for that we've decided we will need some radio mics due to the type of music and band we'll have.

 

Skill level of sound team: About as much as I know about neucleur physics... (ie not much). I dont plan to operate it myself for little shop, but am very willing to teach in detail those who do.

 

Our main problem up until now has been the fact that the afore mentioned member has only been able to put the sound system in place a week before the show, so no-one has really been able to get to grips with it or sound in general unless they do sound elsewhere and have previous knowledge. Now that we are getting our own sound system we can have it out and train verious people in how to use it - we're doing the same with the lighting system.

[paulears]

The pros arch hasn't in reality got much to do with feedback. Ok - snags. Shop of horrors has quite a few numbers that usually mean LOUD. Are the band in a pit, in the wings, backstage? Getting the balance right is tricky. You really need a sound op who has a decvent set of ears to balance the music against the mics. I'd expect you tohave to head mount the mics. centre front/temple/cheek/boom wire near mouth - but NOT clipped on to the costumes. This often is the place people stick them, and in a show like this, loudness may well be difficult to achieve without everything taking off. If the band are in the 'pit' position, then they are also closest to the audience and create a sound barrier between the cast and the audience.

 

A proper PA is important. Boxes on poles may not be good enough. What will you be putting through them? Just vocals, or the band too? When exactly will you teach these people? They need shows to practice on. The first few shows they do will be pretty bad. Can they hear feedback before it happens - loads of people just can't detect ringing. Can they actually balance? It is scary to let people do their first mix on the real show with an audience. Many simply push a fader to a marked point and never touch it again. Can they follow scripts - making sure the right faders are up. Damn obvious, but many seem to assume that turning the mics on and off from the packs is the actors responsibility, rather than having them on al the time and doing it properly from the desk. You'll need a spare body to look after them at the stage end too.

 

You say the hall acoustics are bad - this means the radio mics will be even more tricky to manage. cheaper mics need more eq to keep them stable, and sometimes you have to accept very strange eq settings just to let them 'settle and merge'. My experience has always been radio mics are dreadful if the techncial team are weak - and excellent if the crew really are on the ball. The mics get blamed for being c-rap when often it is the person working them that's to blame.

[Simon Lewis]

I used to work in a theatre that had a 1000w speaker system installed the amp's volume never left 50% and that was loud,

 

Unfortunately, power rating alone can be rather meaningless.... the "loudness" depends on many factors - such as gain structure and loudspeaker sensitivity.

 

Granted - 1000W can be plenty "loud", but it's only 3dB more than 500W ;-)

[willpower]

...have you considered hiring the kit?

I have, and I think as you say this will be our basic kit though admittedly more than what you were discribing. I have a lot of quite decent audio equipment at school that I can lay my hands on and the am dram company can always hire them - I'd get them for cheaper than a hire company probably due to the fact I'm friendly with the technician. Having said that, I dont think we'd ever need more than 6 radio mics and an SM58 - might need some boundry mics at some point though.

 

Band will be in the pit. I was also expecting to headmount the mics too, I know all too well the problems with rustling costumes and not being picked up well when mics are put on the costume. The closer to the mouth, the less you have to turn it up to pick them up, the less chances of feedback. We are definitely not miking the band, this would make the whole thing too loud. The mics will just be for principles for songs (one of the things I'll say is to turn the mics off during dialogue, there's no need for them then and makes it sound uneven with characters that aren't miked) and for the plant (who'll use the SM58).

 

As for the actual training of the operators, we will have a couple of months to do this and I'll try to tell them everything I know about sound... not meaning to sound big headed as I'm no pro but that should at least point them in the right direction. They will be following a script, and there should be at least 2 of them on the desk - usually one to follow the script and the other to actually do the levelling. I may well need a 3rd to be backstage switching the mics between characters.

 

Many thanks,

 

Will

[paulears]

If you are planning to share mics - if budget allows, a good system is to have a few spare mics. That way, they can be left on the person, installed properly, and just the packs swapped. Don't forget the one thing that does show between amateur shows and pro shows is eq - digital desks can really help here. Each person needs different eq - often this doesn't happen and people 'share' a channel eq that works for feedback, but not always to enhance peoples voices. If you can get the mics in close, then you have more scope for audio quality eq instead of feedback reduction. Two ops should work, but I'm not sure about splitting it into script and balancing - the script warns you about the entrances and exits so the person on the faders needs access to the script, the other person carries out sfx duties normally - maybe I've just misunderstood. With SOH the Ronnette style songs are quite difficult to balance if the ops have never listened to Motown - the balance here is pretty important to the song. I'd also guess you may have to mic some elements of the band, especially if you have amplified guitars - some guitar parts in this show are quite dificult to play quietly, unless the player has a pod, or similar.

[bigglesuk]

If the packs are to be used by more than one performer you can use different EQ on an analogue desk, you just have to Y-split the signal coming in. So each performer would have their own channel on the desk, though that may mean that you need to use a desk with more channels.

[Matt Riley]

Just to reiterate, don't skimp on the desk - I'd go for a soundcraft FX16/ A+H mixwizard minimum for this application. Possibly try to pick up a 24ch GL2200 2nd hand if you can find a decent one. Also - speakers - Mackie SRM 450s have always worked ok for me in small applications. Get decent interconnects etc, evaluating whether you need a multicore or not.

 

Total real world cost of a mixwiz and some mackies is about £1500 + cases and cables - say £2000, that leaves you the rest to spend on radio mics - for £2000 then you could prob get either 4 evo 300s or 6 evo 100s - and they are the standard at the moment for this sort of thing.

 

The trantec one you linked to appears to be fixed frequency and trantec kit (<4000 series) is not renowned for its robustness. The same with samson - they are very much a cheap manufacturer which I would hesistate to recommend.

 

At first I thought I'd recommend just going and buying the speakers and mixer - then I did the maths, and a sennheiser evo 300 rig would probably cost about £3000 to put together right. To get a decent return on investment for the radio mics, you only need to use them for about 3-4 weeks (6x evo 300 = about £1000 p.w. list), so I reckon that you could do quite well buying that system.

 

cheers,

 

Matt