Safety in Schools

[Dweeks]

Hi all.

 

I'm at P.Funk's school and just thought I'd add my thoughts.

 

I totally agree that H&S is essential, but I can also see Jon's point that it does get in the way. For example, officially we are supposed to have a teacher with us as we are under 18. However, this is totally ridiculous. anybody who has worked with teachers knows they have very little free time! Thus we've just kinda 'carried on' without them, and they've generally ignored it. Maybe its dangerous, but myself n P.Funk both worked hard on this course, we're not some idiots who would go up a dangerous tower, we fully check it before we use it etc.

 

I'm with Jon in that I believe that you have to take some risks. Ok, theres no teacher available often, but otherwise nothing would get done. Jon and to a lesser extent myself are perfectionists, we spend many hours working our darndest to make a show look good. Thus far, we've had no accidents whatsoever, not even minor.

 

Lets be honest, if a teacher was in the room what difference would it make?

 

David

[P. Funk]

shudnt have sed that weeksy... not only do I feel an onslaught of flames coming on, but you have just tempted fate in saying we have had no accidents, the week in which we'll be up the tower more than we'll be down it :D

 

edit: by the way we are both in the 6th form.. we are not stupid...

[Dweeks]

Oops! ** laughs out loud **

 

Just to add to that post, We never have any music playing/sexy schoolgirls under the tower to put us off.

 

So we're always concentratin on our rigin ;)

** laughs out loud **

 

:D

[peter]

Guys guys, lets try and keep this on topic... you can always chat about your school using the PM facility.

 

 

To quote from our Terms and Conditions, which you've all read thoroughly, right? :D

 

Any "non-backstage" discussion topic that takes up a substantial amount of thread space and prevents users from finding a discussion topic should be carried out using the Private Message facility. Given that it is very easy to do this, we don't expect this to be a problem.

[Brian]

Bryson said...

...some people over-apply what they think are Health and Safety "laws"...

which is a big problem. People who do not know their job pulling meaningless rules out of a hat because they do not understand H&S. This causes confusion and resentment. The media are no better, casually using the phrase 'health and safety laws'.

 

David said...

I totally agree that H&S is essential, but I can also see Jon's point that it does get in the way.

It shouldn't 'get in the way', what it should do is make you do something in a different way. If you put obstacles in peoples way they will simply find a way around them. Show them a better and safer way of doing it and, hopefully, they will do it that way.

 

David said...

officially we are supposed to have a teacher with us as we are under 18. However, this is totally ridiculous. anybody who has worked with teachers knows they have very little free time! Thus we've just kinda 'carried on' without them, and they've generally ignored it.

I don't think the requirement to have an adult with you is ridiculous: it's the situation that no-one is available to be there that is ridiculous.

[egw]

I agree entirely with those who have said that we should be responsible for our own actions, however, please remember that what we do often makes us (at least partly) responsible for the lives of other people.

As per the Health and Safety at Work Act 1974, and I'd miss out the 'partly'.

Hi, I thought that since it was relevant to the original post -

 

Mr Fairchild:

There have been a couple of threads recently which have got me thinking...

 

Just how responsible, in H&S terms, are pupils in a school/college?

 

- I thought I'd explain why I used the word 'partly'.

 

For a pupil over the age of sixteen it seems reasonable to assume the same level of duty of care as you would for any adult with the justification that if the government thinks you are old enough to marry then they must feel you are able to handle a 'duty of care' (potentially). Additionally at the age of sixteen you can leave education and enter work, where you would be treated as an employee. However, for a pupil under the age of sixteen I think the legal situation is less clear, with the only relevant prosecutions I saw on the H.S.E. database being where the act was used to protect children. Also if you consider the terrible case of Jamie Bulger, the killers recieved a light sentance since it was felt that they were not fully aware of the consequences of their action. That does imply a reduced duty of care, although in reality it may seem unreasonable to take that view courts have in the past.

 

An additional factor is that pupils may well be doing work 'under the direction of' the teacher As an example if the teacher asked two pupils to lift something which turned out to be too heavy for them and one of the pupil recieved a minor injury then the teacher has a responsibility since they told the pupils to lift it. However, the pupils should have thought about the lift and the weight and asked a colleague to help; thats pretty much what you'd expect somebody who understood manual handling to do. Maybe the example or the explanation is not great but I'm trying to get an idea across, not a manual handling course.

 

In conclusion, I think it is therefore not always easy to say that a pupil has more than a partial responsibility when viewed by the law, except where the actions could be shown to be the reasoned actions of the pupil alone. For instance a if a lantern was sent up without a hookclamp and the pupil at the top of the tower gaffer taped it to the bar instead of rejecting it then they have made the choice alone and since they are rigging it they must surely have a clear understanding of what each part of rigging hardware involved is for.

 

The issue is primarily a lack of training; the staff are not trained in the activities and thus don't always know how to supervise them although the school often expects them to supervise and put themselve forward as competant. If the teachers don't know it they can not teach it and hence they can not construct a training programme for interested students (even if they had the time). One of the effects of this is that people (as several posters, myself included have noted) is that people end up with a confused view of safety. Perhaps theA.B.T.T. might be an appropriate means of helping by supporting a 'Technical Theatre for Teachers' crash course or something along those lines.

 

cheers

 

Ed

 

p.s. sorry about the length :D

[Dweeks]

I don't think the requirement to have an adult with you is ridiculous: it's the situation that no-one is available to be there that is ridiculous.

No, because there is someone there, be it Jon or someone else who's trained on the tower.

 

Besides, one of the teachers offices is just opposite the hall.

 

:D

[Dweeks]

And lets face it, if theres a teacher there what difference would it make in the long run?! I mean, if I'm going to fall off the tower, I'm going to fall. Its still my own fault.

 

I would actually feel very bad for any teacher who got the blame for something that was my own doing. But I guess thats part of this world these days - you can't be responsible for yourself, there must be always someone to blame.

 

Rant over, time to revise! :D

 

 

W

[Brian]

The issue is primarily a lack of training; the staff are not trained in the activities and thus don't always know how to supervise them although the school often expects them to supervise and put themselve forward as competant.

 

I think you've hit the nail on the head here Ed (and an excellent post).

 

I don't believe that anyone really thinks that H&S is not important. What is obvious is that the Government are placing more responsibilites for H&S onto 'employers' who are expected to carry the costs of training and risk assessments. Unfortunately, this also means that educational establishments are expected to do the same, at a time when they don't have enough money for staff/books/materials/maintenance let alone funds for staff and pupil safety training.

[Blame Jono]

I totaly agree that H&S is being taken to far because of our very Americanised culture of sueing everyone even if something was our own fault.

I was once told a story by a guy who I was working at a local theatre about him being aproached and asked if he'd had an accident at work. And he had, an accident in which a heavy object had fallen on his hand, but it was his fault because he didnt secure the object properly. If he'd have gone to court he probabaly would have won somehow, but he refused to accept the need to sue everyone for anything thats your fault.

And maybe its this culture of suing which makes the need for so many unrealistic H&S rules because people refuse to admit whenthey are to blame.

The people that enforce these rules are normaly doing their job, (unles they take it too far), and its not their fault, niether is it really the fault of some technicians who bypassed mcbs (although I'm not saying that its a good idea), but I feel it's the fault of our Americanised culture in which sueing rather than accepting responsibility seems the only answer. :blink:

[Bryson]

Sorry, but:

 

niether is it really the fault of some technicians who bypassed mcbs

 

is just plain wrong. The MCBs are there for the protection of the user, and have been specified by a qualified electrician or electrical engineer. If you bypass them it is your fault if something goes wrong.

[Blame Jono]

I never said that if when bypassing an mcb you blow yourself and your mate up that its not your fault. Infact totaly the opposite it is your fault and it is you that should be responsible for your actions, however it is our society that has made people find somebody else to make responsible for peoples own actions. I was merely saying that it is not the fault of lunatics that do outragously unsafe things that we have H&S. Its the fault of society and needing to cover your own arse.

[Dweeks]

Heh, for a HILARIOUS read about Health n Safety n the general attitude to this, take a look at this!

 

:blink::D

[Blame Jono]

Brilliant and so true

 

Heh, for a HILARIOUS read about Health n Safety n the general attitude to this, take a look at this!

[Techno_Monkey]

Woo we have had a H&S breakthrough at last! :blink:

 

I believe that there is a new H&S officer in charge our schools and has mentioned that he would like to make things a little more relaxed with regard to ladders etc. He has finally realised that some students are actually more safe than some of the caretakers up ladders etc, and is happy for us to use them again as long as we have been assesed and 'are safe to do so'.

 

At last someone realises that you can't pass an A level in Drama doing LX without using a ladder and see's the practical skills and learning experiences that are learned through the use of ladders etc.