Safety in Schools

[Brian]

There have been a couple of threads recently which have got me thinking...

 

Just how responsible, in H&S terms, are pupils in a school/college?

 

We know that every employee has a general duty of care to their colleagues and that as you move up the management chain you get more responsible for the people below you. In prosecutions, it appears that generally the company and Managing Director are the ones held liable.

 

Looking at the HSE database, I see several cases of accidents in schools where the local authority have been prosecuted.

 

Based on what my better half told me, as an ex-union H&S rep, I had believed that pupils were not considered as being covered by the HSWA. However, I have found several prosecutions that directly relate to accidents sustained by pupils so it appears the the HSE are taking a broader role in H&S.

 

If a pupil is 'working' as a stage technician just how much responsibiliy do they have under the HSWA? The HSE have a broad view of the definition of employee, as it would appear to include volunteers working for no money, so I guess that it could include a pupil. The chain of command would go from the pupil to the supervisng teacher, through head of department to the school head and then on to the board of govenors and the local authority (if applicable).

 

In the event of an accident then it is likely that the people/organisation at the top would be prosecuted.

 

My concern is that people with no real industry experience are being expected to make decisions. I'm talking here about pupils, and teachers for whom theatre is not their main expertise. Most teachers involved in school drame (outside of specialist colleges) appear to be drawn from the English and Art departments for the production side and Physics for the technical side (a bit simplified I know).

 

I know there are a few people around here from educational establishment and I wondered what you views are? Does anyone have any direct experience of the situation?

[Fiona]

I have lots of views on this very subject......let me just finish supervising my students who are just about to start rigging lights and I'll share my thoughts with you.........

[DickM]

While not a direct answer to your question here's a short story that may be of interest to readers of this thread...

 

First off, let me be clear I'm involved in with lighting and sound only on for amateur productions, so I'm never an 'employee' of any of the groups I work with.

 

A couple of months after helping out with lighting for a scouts/guides event in a local school, a received a call out of the blue from the school's 'site manager' (not sure if he was also a teacher). He told me that the school was reviewing their H&S responsibilities, and because no one in the school was certified to erect or use their scaf-tower, they were arranging training for everyone who used it to focus lighting, including their own caretaker who'd been using it for years.

 

When he told me I'd have to pay for the training myself, and I told him I had no plans of doing any work in the school in the foreseeable future, we took it no further with me, but it does bring up a couple of interesting points:

- this school was obviously trying to do the right thing, and ensure they took their H&S responsibilities seriously.

- but how on earth could they provide on-going training for all the staff and pupils, given the turnover of pupils wanting to get involved with their drama productions each year?

- and similarly, will they really check that everybody who comes in to help out with amateur/charity/PTA events is 'certified' to use all the equipment, and stop the event if that is not he case?

 

An interesting minefield for all involved! :)

 

Dick.

[Techno_Monkey]

You read my mind, I was just thinking about starting the same post!

 

I also would like to know where I stand, as a sixth for student (year 13) along with 2 other main poeple, run and look after the technical side at our school.

 

We treat the job as if we were going to be held responsible for anything that may go wrong, although I am sure the blame would be placed much higher at management level.

 

No one ever reallly checks our work unless we ask for a second opinion on something we wish to set about doing, however it would have been very easy to make huge mistakes, causing an accident without anyone knowing.

 

let me just finish supervising my students who are just about to start rigging lights and I'll share my thoughts with you

 

The rules at our school have just changed. We have been told that under NO CIRCUMSTANCES should we use a ladder or scaffold tower to access anything above ground level. I would be interested to see others views on this, as I believe it makes passing an AS level in technical drama (lighting) nearly impossible as it cuts out the rigging and focusing of lanterns (which surely is a fundemental part of the course)

 

If this is the case, where does the H&S issues stop? At present we are allowed, for example, to wire mains plugs, to use hammers/saws and undertake a number of other potentially dangerous activities.

 

I understand the need for H&S rules/regulations, but I feel that they can be taken too far, to the point where work no longer can be achieved in a period of time that would have originally been deemed acceptable. For example, we recently had just two days to re rig our lighting for a major school event, a fair period of time under normal circumstances, however the only people allowed to use ladders are the caretakers (who know very little, if nothing about the rigging and addressing of moving lights, and are also far too busy to spend time helping), and the technical manager who is off site for the majority of the days on a touring lecture to other schools. This then meant staying after school alot longer that necessary to plot the lighting fot the event, in the time that A level coursework should be getting completed in.

 

Unfortunatley we have been seen to be able to achieve the near impossible before and are now taken for granted at every school event that takes place. And I believe that the cause of this, is mainly the restraints put upon us due to H&S (although I certainly see the need for it)

 

Anyway, sorry about the long post, just needed to vent somewhere!! :)

 

*breathe deeply and stay calm*

[Fiona]

I work with over 18's at a university so some of these issues and my opinions may be different compared to secondary school situations.

 

It's all a bit of a dodgy area, and open to interpretations of varying degrees, but I I personally believe that students should take responsibility for their own health and safety within reason - with of course the correct training being offered from the educational establishment. The problem arises where there is no one in the school / college who really understand the H&S aspects of a theatre. I take full responsibility for the technical areas in my employment and will not allow any student who has not completed a Lighting course to use the technical equipment. During this course they are taught how to use equipment safely and sign paper work to show they have understood how to work safely. Each year a new intake of students are trained in these courses so we have a rolling stock of more experienced and less experienced 'technicians'.

 

The problem is more to do with untrained staff not fully understanding these implications and asking students to carry out tasks that are sometimes quite frankly dangerous.....the students of course believe that the member of staff (being a figure of authority), would never put them in a compromising position and think their grades could be affected so feel they have carry out these requests. It is these members of staff that have never set foot on a professional stage and haven't a clue about how professional theatre works - especially back stage, that really get my goat. If students are being 'trained' to work back stage (or even on stage) the people training / teaching them should have some experience of having working in a proper theatre and the implications that go with it. The majority of teachers are only concerned with the actors and the overall look of the piece not how a production is put together and the skills that are needed by a up and coming student production team.

 

It does sometimes feel as if I am banging my head against a wall - when the largest spaces in a school with possibly the most risks in them are just running with a bit of luck that an accident has never happened and no one oversees the H&S aspects.

 

Prime example.....I am no allowed to change a 60 watt light bulb stood on the floor in my office, but yet put me up a tower with a 1000 watt bulb and no one bats an eye lid!!! Purely because the estates dept don't understand or really have any interest in what happens in the theatre / studio spaces that we have here. All safety measures have been implemented by me, and it is only now that the estates dept are recognising the fact that there are some major risks involved in working in the theatre industry and are supporting me slightly more.

 

I shall now stop and take a deep breath.............

 

I do think that in Drama schools this is probably not so much the case as you have a team of professionals that ALL understand how to work safely .....more people to shout when others further up the chain aren't listening.........

[Rob]

I do think that in Drama schools this is probably not so much the case as you have a team of professionals that ALL understand how to work safely .....more people to shout when others further up the chain aren't listening.........

 

Mentioning no names...

 

This is at a Drama school staffed by professionals with centuries of combined experience. We had a stituation last year where a production was using water on stage. The LD wanted to put some fixtures under water. Two tutors advised that it was safe to use regular birdies under water. So the dilligent chief LX, despite not being convinced this was a good idea, did a test run with a bucket of water under the supervision of two tutors and a venue technician. Of course, the bubble went bang and 13A ring main tripped out. They changed their minds.

 

In many circumstances, despite the "more people to shout" not a lot happens. For instance providing people who work alone on site with radios.

[steve1159]

I do a fair amount of work in schools and educational places and find that the situation varies considerably. Some places rely on one or two students that are interested and are basically left to get on with it, often with little or no supervision, covering everything from rigging and opping a show through attempted repairs of kit. The school is happy that someone that seems to know what they are doing is sorting everything out. Other places students are not allowed to do anything other than opping. All rigging etc they contract someone in. This is often not because of H&S concerns but lack of time for anyone in the school to actually rig it. The downside is they assume it can be left to the last minute and then say we want this, this and this and you have 1/2hour to rig after this class and before this exam. Other places they rely on the caretakers to rig lights who generally have no idea and don't really have the time to do it anyway. On more than one occasion I have pointed out where this has occurred has actually resulted in a potentially dangerous situation. (I assume hanging lights by wrapping the chain (not even a safety chain) around the bar instead of using a hook clamp is not a new recommended method of rigging that I have not heard about!!!!!!)

 

Basically what the ramblings above are saying is that there are a variety of practices in schools and where H&S is even considered it is very open to interpretation depending on the school, local education department and local H&S representatives. While I can understand a degree of variation based on the current circumstances and risk assessments etc it seems ridiculous that one place students can assemble and go up a tower to any height but not use a step ladder (because it is dangerous) and another school down the road students can use a ladder but cant use a tower (because it is dangerous).

[DSA]

Yes thats interesting, because I readily erect/dismantle the tower to access lights on the stage, and at the school round the corner the chap there told me last week that H and S have told him that he cant under any circumstances use it.

 

I had a look and it looks just the same as ours.

 

He was also told that a ladder he uses to get up to his box is also out of bounds until he has permanent steps - so thats no lighting/sound for about a year then...??

 

As far as I am aware we have no H and S inspections. Before a show, the estates manager and nominated H and S teacher comes around and makes comments about dodgy handrail, tie that in with rope for safety etc etc. Maybe they have sufficient training (or whatever is required).

 

However, for any small event eg talent show, they never come around - its only for the larger productions.

 

I wonder what this says???

 

David

[Brian]

...I readily erect/dismantle the tower...

Quick question, have you received any formal training?

 

...told me last week that H and S have told him that he cant under any circumstances use it.

Unlikely to have been an HSE inspector, probably someone within the school/local authority.

 

I wonder what this says???

I think your post says it all. Unfortunately H&S practice seems to vary widely.

 

As a side note...on friday morning I had a call from someone I know who plays in a band and who was doing a gig that night for Children in Need. They were playing in a school hall and when asking about lights had been told that, as the school were no longer allowed to access the FOH or on-stage bars, they could use what was their but nothing could be changed. My friend observed that the gels seemed to be 'slightly' bleached and some lamps not working, perhaps indicating the length of time that they had been untouched.

[James]

I do a fair amount of work in schools and educational places and find that the situation varies considerably. Some places rely on one or two students that are interested and are basically left to get on with it, often with little or no supervision, covering everything from rigging and opping a show through attempted repairs of kit. The school is happy that someone that seems to know what they are doing is sorting everything out.

 

That was the situation in my school when I was around.

 

There was no formal H&S training - just common sense - you knew that if you moved the towers by pulling yourself across the bars then you ran the risk of pulling it over.

 

Did it happen - yes

Did the poor boy who was at the top have the shock of his life - yes

Did an accident or near miss form get filed - of course not.

 

When I got into the VIth form - there came the point when I started to get concerned about H&S - so I ended up (student) training up a member of staff. Was I qualified to train - I had nothing on paper - all I had was 6 years experience of doing it, a knowledge of expected practice and my common sense.

 

I don't know what the situation there is now but I doubt it's changed that much.

[Chris Higgs]

A school/LEA would be held responsible for 'safety' via the members of staff.

Students are effectively treated as employees from a health and safety point of view.

Young people/children may not be exposed to serious risk by law.

Supervision is expected to be competent.

The school has a duty of care to anyone using equipment they provide.

The school has a duty of care to people using their site.

The activities involved with a production (school/non school) may well be deemed a work activity.

The Health and Safety at Work Act and Management Regs 1999 almost certainly could apply in many cases.

Electrical, mechanical and access equipment are regulated in this area as in any other.

I would strongly recommend that anyone concerned with any issue related to shows in schools, colleges or other educational establishments should contact their Environmental Health Officer via the LEA and encourage them to visit, tackle issues head on and not wait for an accident to happen.

This may stifle creativity from time to time, but there have been some nasty accidents involving exactly such issues as some mention in the forum.

[Ike]

Up until 2002 I was a student at a public school in west Yorkshire. During my last two years there I did pretty much everything LX and sound wise (occasionally we would get somebody in to do sound as it isnít really my area).

 

The chain of command was not very clear but probably went something like: Governors > Bursar > Me, there was not teacher in charge or department leader.

 

During my time there I used the available access equipment (which was inappropriate but thatís a different story), made up cables, serviced dimmers/portable appliances and helped out with PAT testing which was carried out by an outside contractor with no experience in the theatre.

 

I would say I did a lot from a H&S point of view from helping with risk assessments to preventing what I saw as unsafe activities tacking place. Although I have had some formal H&S training by HSE standards I would probably not have been classed as competent, not least due to my lack of experience at that time.

 

When I was leaving I insisted on a technician being employed to run the schools venues.

[DSA]

Quick question, have you received any formal training?

 

No

 

All the caretaker (that stores the tower) said was there you go then. (or something like that)

 

On the first occasion, I did ask so I put like this here and that there. And his reply was something like, 'yes, its pretty obvious really as long as it stays up - cross brace the long ones'!!!!

 

Well I did indeed work it out, with some careful logical thinking, which luckily people at my school do have, however this would not be obvious to everybody....!

 

So I wouldnt really call that 'formal', would you??

 

Unlikely to have been an HSE inspector, probably someone within the school/local authority.

 

Yes, at our school a nominated teacher comes round who is very critical. I expect at my friend's school it is just an LEA rep or something like that.

 

As I said before, we never see them for smaller 'jobs' eg talent shows, and I dont fill in any risk assesment forms.

 

It is all a bit out of hand, really. Shame because I think these regs. can be taken too far/too literally - e.g. telling someone that something they have done happily and very safely for 20 years is no good and that they will have to pay someone to come in to do it, is just silly.

 

I hope you agree.

 

I realise that this may not really be the case in schools, but still, some sort of down to earth sense is reqd.

 

David

[Brian]

The main use of things like ladders and tower scaffolds is in the construction industry which has an appalling safety record. In one recent 12 month period, 79 people died. If that happened as a single incident, say a train crash, imagine the outcry; and yet it goes on almost unreported.

 

In an attempt to reduce these figures the HSE take a tough line with temporary access equipment.

 

A fundamental requirement of safe working is training. Quick question, what is the safe angle for a ladder leaning against a wall? The answer is at the bottom of the page. OK, now be honest, did you know the answer? And yet many of us use ladders.

 

Here are some useful links on the HSE site for basic advice to get you started.

 

Tower Scaffold Leaflet from the HSE

Working at Height in Entertainment

Ladder leaflet from the HSE

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Answer...One Out, Four Up

[Tomo]

To be honest, with ladders I've always thought "About that", rather than any specific maxim. My that is the same angle, but it's nice to know the figures.

 

At my old school we didn't have any access equipment other than a normal A-frame ladder. The on-stage stuff was focused and serviced in the air from said ladder, and there was a permanent FOH rig that we stick-focused.

 

The rest was done with some T-bars, focused while lowered and then raised. Takes some thought, but you can be pretty accurate that way if you have to be.

 

We occasionally hired in some scaffolding for followspot operators (ie me), but that was always constructed by the hire company. It was used without any training whatsoever though, which in retrospect was probably a bad thing.

The worst was probably the gig at the National Centre for Popular Music, where I was spotting from three planks (two for the light, one for me) on a tower that swayed.

Only 10foot high or so, but still...