Safety Bonds and School

[Brian]

we are going to the limits of actually using our pay to buy chain from a hardware store and making them ourselves!!!!

 

as Stu points out it's better to buy the proper part. If a lamp fell and your home-made bond didn't stop it then you would be in deep do-do. If it fell and didn't have a bond then at least it would not be your fault (no comfort to anyone it hits I know).

 

OK you might be shut down

 

Very unlikely, more likely the establishment would be issued with an improvement notice. It's very rare for the HSE to 'shut you down' on a first visit.

 

Schools do seem to live in in a world of their own, but that quite often is pressure from above

 

as in pressure = no money. As my other half is a teacher I have a good insight here. You wouldn't believe how little they have to spend on materials for her subject (Art). I spend more on cds/dvds/books in a year than they have to spend on materials for some 1500 pupils.

 

Others have made a number of suggestions about how to proceed. I would say that using any sort of threat, especially going to the press, is NOT the way to go. It will only end up obscuring the original issue. Best to keep things calm and focussed.

[Matt]

thanks for all of your concerns. we have wrote about five or six letters, and regarding bolts shaering, it did shear, the first we have come across.

 

...we came into rig after the summer holiday to find a package in our office, it weighed a ton, and to our delight, when it was opened we had about 200 chains.

 

...and regarding the fact that the fall could have been stoped with a safety, yes it could, quite clearly, it wasn't exactly a heavy light, just a selecon acclaim. our rigging troubles with this issue are now over, thank god.

 

regarding the performance liscense I dont know, but we have put on performances to the public yes, but this was with hired movers and par cans, which all came with safety chains...

 

we have a local theatre group that uses our school hall, we just got to get it into their heads that they have to rig with chains now.

 

these chains that we were buying brian are bigger in loop size, and thickness of loop, than the ones that were just delivered, but we have now been re-imbursed with the money we spent

 

as I said at the start, I thank you once more for all your concerns and all your advice, it is nice to know that there is always advice and help out there.

 

thanks very much.

 

matt.

[DSA]

I have just come across another instance of this situation. By no means as large, but another instance certainly.

 

My hall has just bought 2 Martin disco light things for the bar (from (95% sure) a top supplier who has already been mentioned in this thread). They have nice doughty stands and all that, but when I went in tonight to see if I could borrow the sound kit, I saw them and no safeties! I asked the chap and he pretended not to hear etc. What a joke. For a tenner they could have them. I agree that it is unlikely for the hook clamp to fail, but even so...

 

What is more amazing is that the supplier didn't seem to sell the bonds with the units.... Now that they have them I expect they will just be hung by the clamp each time. Does loler cover this sort of thing? He mentioned 'you could use rope'. At that point I pretended not to hear...

 

David

[Andrew C]

I have just come across another instance of this situation.  By no means as large, but another instance certainly.

 

My hall has just bought 2 Martin disco light things for the bar (from (95% sure) a top supplier who has already been mentioned in this thread).  They have nice doughty stands and all that, but when I went in tonight to see if I could borrow the sound kit, I saw them and no safeties!  I asked the chap and he pretended not to hear etc.  What a joke.  For a tenner they could have them.  I agree that it is unlikely for the hook clamp to fail, but even so...

 

What is more amazing is that the supplier didn't seem to sell the bonds with the units....  Now that they have them I expect they will just be hung by the clamp each time.  Does loler cover this sort of thing?  He mentioned 'you could use rope'.  At that point I pretended not to hear...

 

David

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

"They have nice Doughty stands..." So why should they have bonds? What do you propose to attach the bonds too? Did you order bonds with them? If they are on a stand, why are they using hooks?

 

You could use a rope, if it were to be "type approved", (unlikely) but in real life probably just as good!

[DSA]

I have just come across another instance of this situation.  By no means as large, but another instance certainly.

 

My hall has just bought 2 Martin disco light things for the bar (from (95% sure) a top supplier who has already been mentioned in this thread).  They have nice doughty stands and all that, but when I went in tonight to see if I could borrow the sound kit, I saw them and no safeties!  I asked the chap and he pretended not to hear etc.  What a joke.  For a tenner they could have them.  I agree that it is unlikely for the hook clamp to fail, but even so...

 

What is more amazing is that the supplier didn't seem to sell the bonds with the units....  Now that they have them I expect they will just be hung by the clamp each time.  Does loler cover this sort of thing?  He mentioned 'you could use rope'.  At that point I pretended not to hear...

 

David

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

"They have nice Doughty stands..." So why should they have bonds? What do you propose to attach the bonds too? Did you order bonds with them? If they are on a stand, why are they using hooks?

 

You could use a rope, if it were to be "type approved", (unlikely) but in real life probably just as good!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Oh right. Are no safeties required for when lanterns are attached to a crosspiece on a stand with hookclamps? I would normally whack a bond/chain through the yoke and over the bar...

 

They are using hook clamps as the fixtures are hung on a scaff bar with the stands forming a goalpost design (?Big Ben clamp on stands). And I didn't order the fixtures so I wouldn't know if they were ordered with safeties.

 

David

 

EDIT: What is the real difference between a hook clamp failing whilst on a stand (as long as the safety can't slip off), and on a truss/IWB etc.??

[Dweeks]

Well I guess generally trussing is designed to be higher than t-bars.

Also, the purpose of truss is to hang lights over something, whilst T-bars, if something falls, they will fall into space occupied only by the T-bar... hopefully.

 

I always safety bond stuff on T-Bars, even lil Par 56's.

[DSA]

Well I guess generally trussing is designed to be higher than t-bars.

Also, the purpose of truss is to hang lights over something, whilst T-bars, if something falls, they will fall into space occupied only by the T-bar... hopefully.

 

I always safety bond stuff on T-Bars, even lil Par 56's.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry but I find most of what you say rather incorrect, just by common sense.

 

You could have a T-bar at 50m height, so long as it is not overloaded over its SWL. The advantage of a truss is generally to increace the loading capacity/span of the structure, but there is nothing to say that you couldn't use a truss as a crosspiece on a stand, albeit being perhaps OTT (given that the stand itself will not have that high an SWL).

 

Surely the purpose of any lighting rigging equipment is to hang lights over something?

 

I have always been trained that equipment falls of any kind and height should always be avoided. 'Allowing' a lantern to fall off a T-bar at stand height is simply paving the way for slackness with a larger rig.

 

Well those are my thoughts on that. Some of the detail may be incorrect as I do not have much experience (yet)! Feel free to criticise.

 

David

[TomLyall]

"even lil par 56's" - I'd really rather appreciate it if you didn't drop one on my head still, they're more than heavy and sharp enough to do some serious damage even from only, say, a metre above your head. :blink:

 

Anyway, if, as you say, the stands support a larger structure, or goalpost then safety-ing is generally speaking a good idea. However, on a t-bar, its potentially likely to pull over the entire stand, with results much worse than one fixture falling vertically. Its something I think you'd want to assess on a case by case basis.

[Andrew C]

I'll confess that I read the post as 1 stand + 1 lantern. The bond would just slide down the tube of the stand. With a T-bar, hmm, needs thought, and a "goal post" Yep, put the bonds on.

 

Further thoughts on Risk Assessing bonds to follow....

[techsupport]

Hello Matt, do not hang any lighting without secondary support, this might help.

 

I suggest you point your Teacher and Headmaster at this link to the Law.

 

 

Statutory Instrument 1998 No. 2307

 

The Lifting Operations and Lifting Equipment Regulations 1998

 

http://www.legislation.hmso.gov.uk/si/si1998/19982307.htm

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

You could also show them some more info which may help, with Electricity. It was posted on another forum but it is all about your Health and Safety

 

Link

 

Sincerely

Tech Support

 

Duplicate posting removed and link added: Moderators

[Brian]

The Lifting Operations and Lifting Equipment Regulations 1998

 

http://www.legislation.hmso.gov.uk/si/si1998/19982307.htm

 

To quote regulation 8(2) of LOLER...

 

In this regulation "lifting operation" means an operation concerned with the lifting or lowering of a load.

 

...in other words, if a hook clamp is being used to raise or lower a load it is covered by LOLER but once it's used to fix a load in place then it no longer falls within its scope.

 

Discuss....

[Dweeks]

"even lil par 56's" - I'd really rather appreciate it if you didn't drop one on my head still, they're more than heavy and sharp enough to do some serious damage even from only, say, a metre above your head. :)

 

Anyway, if, as you say, the stands support a larger structure, or goalpost then safety-ing is generally speaking a good idea. However, on a t-bar, its potentially likely to pull over the entire stand, with results much worse than one fixture falling vertically. Its something I think you'd want to assess on a case by case basis.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I hold my hands up, you're right, I didn't think that through.

 

Of course you're right, even a par 56 could do lethal damage.

 

If I could delete that post I would.

 

Apologies

[sam.henderson]

even lil par 56's" - I'd really rather appreciate it if you didn't drop one on my head still, they're more than heavy and sharp enough to do some serious damage even from only, say, a metre above your head.

 

Even a gell frame from a few meters can casue serious damage- unfortunetly I know!! Sliced the top of my head and casued a fair ammount of blood and pain! :)

 

Sam

[the kid]

A bit of science...

 

An adult human skull can fracture with an impact force of 100 joules.

 

100 joules is represented by a mass of 1kg falling 10m, 5kg falling 2m or 10kg falling 1m.

 

So, a lightweight lantern, like a PAR64 which weighs around 3kg, can fracture an adult skull on a drop of around 10 feet.

 

In fact an adult skull will self-fracture when dropped around 4 feet.

 

Figures for children's skulls are much lower.

 

From Brian in "Rigging Lights With Cable Ties"

[Chris Higgs]

For goodness sake, is this still going on?

 

Use a b***** safety bond, preferably of wire rope with a nice captive connector , all strong enough for the gear it it secures and rigged with a minimum of slack, certainly no more than 150mm.

It'll stop something falling. Period. Never mind why, it happens.

 

There are enough suppliers, most decent rental companies will rent them to you if you have a limited budget.

Schools are covered by the Act, so are pupils, they are 'other people'.

I doubt many schools will need a theatre licence but the requirements for a safe place of work or entertainment are very similar and would certainly require the use of equipment that won't fall and hurt someone.

Get the local authority inspector to visit and advise.

 

Regarding an earlier post about ladders versus 'well constructed' towers:

There should be no such thing as a poorly constructed tower.

'Feeling safer' is not necessarily justification for using a ladder.

You should be competent to work at height; in this regard it would include being able to select the right bit of kit and use it correctly.

Ergo pick the wrong kit, or use it incorrectly and you're incompetent.