Notice To All New Cssd Students

[Paul J Need]

Had a crap day so forgive this post in advance.............! :) ;)

 

Is this ever going to end........ we will need to do a risk assesment to cross the bloody road soon; signed in triplicate, and in the instance we get hit by a bus we sue one of the witnesses to the assessment document! Cos they should have had a cuty of care to warn us not to cross the road here cos buses drive along it!!!!

 

I know H&S I inportant, and as a Director of a company the buck stops right here. WITH ME. It is me who shall go to prison if something dreadul happens, *thankfully in 21 years nothing has*....... perhaps we should teach people basic comment sense and all students entering into whatever college course should be able to pass a common sense test before being allowed to apply for the course?!!!!! THen armed with a common sense certificate they wouldn't need the STEEL CAPPED BOOTS cos they would have the sense not to drop anything on their foot????!!!

 

Rant over I'm off home ;)

[Bryson]

At the risk of baiting an angry man....

 

I don't agree about never needing Steels as you "should have the sense" not to drop things on your feet. I wear steel toecaps to work and have, in the last few years, had cause to "use them in anger" several times. They have produced a very real reduction in the number of injury-causing accidents (even if very minor) at my workplace, and I'm sure they do the same at colleges as well.

 

The best reason for buying your own steels is this: the college/employer/whoever will most probably get the cheapest ones they can. Which will not be the most comfortable or stylish (seriously, it matters to some folks!) footwear you've ever had. In my role as enlightened purchaser, I buy nice De Walt trainers that people are willing to wear - providing steels makes no sense if everyone refuses to wear 'em because "they hurt" or "they make me look like a fool."

[Paul J Need]

Hi Bryson,

 

;) Wasn't angry just a bad day..x

 

I agree totally with you buy the best, if you buy a cheap pair of side cutters from the £1 shop, they may last a week if your lucky; spend £20, they will last you years and do the job better.

 

Its just that when I hear the words "Risk assessment" and boots in the same sentence I get goosebumps I suppose :)

 

Most risk assessments should be based on common sense, common sense to identify the risk in the first place, common sense to reduce risk. I have been wearing a seat belt every time I get into a vehicle well before it was made law, It was common sense that told me to buckle up...... I am waffling. I'll go and put the ketlle on !!! ;)

[Thirdtap]

Sorry on a tools topic I belive mid priced hand tools are the answer.

'Cos cheap tools get broken and expensive tools tend to walk.

Mid priced from say a DIY shop not the pound for anything shop.

I bought my dad a DeWalt drill (around £90) for his birthday. He has used the drill alot more then his previous £30 drills, more tourque and a spare battery help.

[Paul J Need]

That's what I meant THirdtap...... Spend £20 not £1, but don't spend £56!

[robloxley]

Except that maybe you lend expensive tools out less readily? Certainly the proper tool for the job makes it a lot easier, and will pay you back for the investment over time.

[Alastair Noonan]

Hello to all, this is my first posting in response to the great steel toecap debate. As a tutor at Central I am directly responsible for issuing the said equipment lists at Central and I have had my attention drawn to the discussion about Central asking students to provide their own safety footwear. Please forgive the length as this is an important issue and I feel I should respond. The string originally began with the assertion that we do not inform students that the footwear specified must be steel toecap. This is not the case and we do specify steel toecap boots. The next assertion was that there is no point buying the hard hat as specified as you will only be allowed to use the PPE already on site. This is simply untrue and I am not sure where this misunderstanding could have arisen. We do keep a stock of hard hats on site for staff and a few spares which students can use if necessary but students are expected, as with steelies, to supply their own.

I hope that if there are any students about to start at Central that have any problems with equipment lists then they will contact us to discuss these concerns. All staff contact details are available through the Central website www.cssd.ac.uk

Our policy is to supply PPE wherever it is appropriate, as we must, but our duty of care in some areas, such as this, is to ensure that students have the correct PPE for the task they are doing or they cannot carry out the task. This is entirely appropriate. The assertion that ‘a student is an employee’ is a disingenuous argument. Whilst there is the duty of care, there are many aspects of training which cannot be the same as the workplace. We have discussed this issue in house and the conclusion reached was for students to supply their own safety footwear ( as a personal PPE item used by the students again and again, whilst the college would supply PPE used less occasionally. This way they take responsibility for their own practice. There is also the argument that steelies are a staple part of anybody’s ‘toolkit’. Kevin Robertson’s statement that if the course specifies that you must turn up for a fit up as part of the degree course and we turn you away because you do not have the correct PPE and we do not supply it, leaving us in breach of contract is slightly different from my perspective. I see it that the student has a responsibility to turn up for the fit up wearing the correct PPE as specified ( and more importantly as they think they should have depending on the tasks being undertaken ) should they not do so then it the student who is effectively ‘in breach’ providing that the student is aware of these requirements in advance.

I am generally, however, saddened by the debate and many of the points made which, in a way, sum up much of the attitudes about H&S and the culture surrounding it. Most depressingly the ‘it’s all a pain’ and that ‘it’s someone else’s responsibility’ attitude which indicate a general reluctance to engage with H&S. Paul, ( barring the comment about people having enough common sense not to drop anything on their feet which I think was probably borne out of Frustration with the endless discussion on issues like this ) makes some valid points, if I read you correctly your attitude is more we need them, lets have them and move on ? You also say that you ‘do not see how providing a pair of boots to students has much to do with anything. If nothing else it puts the emphasis on students to think about looking after their kit, tools and equipment including safety gear’. This is a sentiment I wholeheartedly agree with as is the fact that these days steelies are ‘a tool of the trade’. I also think that Paul’s attitude is one of individual responsibility rather than a ‘nannying’ approach from authority. But we must be aware that as ‘senior’ practitioners, youngsters entering the industry look to us for attitudes as much as skills.

Anyway, as stated, all these things are common sense, before you go up a ladder you look for damage, check it is fit for purpose, positioned correctly etc, the risk assessment is just a formalisation of this procedure and the sooner we all just realise that H&S is something we just have to adhere to and is simply the way it is, the sooner we can get on with doing something more rewarding.

The fact that Central have discussed this, in conjunction with other informed parties and come to a sensible solution by which the duty of care to our students is fulfilled whilst students are also encouraged to take responsibility for their own safety seems sensible to me and to satisfy any requirements of H&S legislation.

Finally, and I realise that this has nothing to do with liabilities and duties of care and at risk of shooting myself in the foot, when I started in the industry I desperately wanted to do it, I wanted the equipment and I wanted my own. I remember the pride when I got my first Yankee screwdriver ( perhaps a give away of my age ) I got it because it was ( as Paul said ) a tool of my trade, which I would need again and again.

It seems to me that any student doing the course would want to have their own equipment. Our financial demands are comparable to any other college in terms of student expenditure and if it is a cost issue alone ( though I still am finding it difficult to countenance that a student can afford every other requirement of the course but falls at the hurdle of the cost of a pair of boots ) then, as always, the college is sympathetic to any student experiencing difficulties.

One of the skills we teach is to have a positive approach to work and a constructive approach to problems encountered at work. It is another part of our jobs to get these students to take responsibility for themselves and their well-being as well as that of those working with them. We are not doing them any favours if we are turning out graduates with an ‘old school’ attitude to H&S and work generally.

 

( Please note this posting is an indication of my opinion of health and safety practice at Central based on my knowledge of current practice and not in fact an official statement of school policy. )

[gareth]

Thank you, Alastair, for that definitive response. Hopefully that will have cleared up any remaining misunderstandings in people's minds.

 

I agree that, while some aspects of H&S legislation are getting way too ridiculous, PPE is not one of them. Speaking personally, I have my own steelies, hard hats, ear defenders, goggles, fall arrest harness, shock-absorbing lanyard, work gloves, and other bits and bobs that I feel I might need in the course of my work. As a self-employed contractor, I have a responsibility, both legally and in terms of my own physical safety and well-being, to provide whatever equiment I need to in order to work safely in any given environment. Anyone, student or working professional, who ignores this responsibility is a fool.

[Tom Baldwin]

and at risk of shooting myself in the foot

Another argument for steelies, surely? :blink:

[Alastair Noonan]

Thanks Tom :blink: