The National Minimum Wage

[Guest lightnix]

Ahem...

 

The National Minimum Wage (and pay rates in it's vicinity) is for people who...

 

a] Flip burgers in fast food restaurants

b] Clean the streets

c] Stick their hands down toilets

d] Work in the warehouse...

 

...for a living. No offence / disrespect to these people intended, I'm sure they are all very fine individuals.

 

It is not for skilled entertainments technicians working on shows, often for long / anti-social hours, many of whom have trained long and hard for their careers, often running up five figure debts in the process. This is a profession, not a trade and should be rewarded accordingly.

 

Thank You. Rant over.

 

PS: Don't forget to check out the "Job Ads" poll in the Issues Forum.

[Bryson]

But... (and I speak as one who pays considerably above the minimum wage)

 

 

could it not also be for those who....

 

Move steeldeck & scaff

Push flightcases & load trucks

Sweep the stage

 

etc etc.

 

I'm by no means suggesting that people who can rig lights/plug up electrics/plug up sound/use a control desk should get paid anywhere near that kind of wage...but I can see that we have menial jobs that need doing too - just as the catering/cleaning/sales industries do.

 

Just playing Devils Advocate with ya...

 

PS: I think this is sufficently on-topic and a serious point of discussion, so have moved it to here.

[Guest lightnix]

could it not also be for those who....

 

Move steeldeck & scaff

Push flightcases & load trucks

Sweep the stage

 

etc etc.

Quite possibly, but you know that's not what I'm talking about.

 

I'll say no more for now. I've done my best to show restraint here and I'll just start to get bitter if I carry on.

[Bryson]

Quite possibly, but you know that's not what I'm talking about

 

Conceded... I guess I'm trying to "stimulate debate"

[Tom]

Personally speaking I would need to be paid considerably more than the minimum wage to sweep the streets or to stick my hand down a toilet.

[Paul J Need]

:o For many years I have had a similar argument about rates of pay.

 

Probably my favourite line (and I have several) is, how come a production electrician/sound "engineer" can earn #175 a day, yet a nurse only receives #41.20 ( before tax)!!!!! ;)

 

Another is....... A dustman does a truely amazing, and yes job..... you only to see what happens when they go on strike ( as they did in my youth) to see how bad things are without them!!

 

I am all for raising the minumin wage to more like 7.50 per hour for everybody... but the consequences are, but will not go into them here, be quite startling! One shouldn't forget that the UK's largest employer is infact small businesses. SME's account for over 60% of employers with well over 1 million small firms employing less than 5 people - (not including the owner) so increase the minimum wage - and watch th unemployment figures rocket - then watch the number of trade show cancellations rocket - less people going to the theatre - less work for the freelancers, or lower wages, or both!

 

Economics is a facincating subject most of us do not understand - we know what we would do if in number 11 Downing street - I actually resent any comments about burger flippers, binmen and other "crappy" jobs - they are vital to the economy of this Country, so important to the way the country runs - Perhaps if you employed people to assist you run Wavicle Nick - you would understand more about what a 100p per hour pay rise actually equates out to over a financial year: It is actually more like 140p adding employers national insurance etc. which roughly means the firm having to find another #2766.40 extra profit to pay for it.

 

I do however agree with a lot of what you say! :** laughs out loud **:

[Ben]

yeah but if you had no money ansd kids to feed you might think about it.

 

I do agree that there are jobs that might not deserve much more than the minumum wage such as sweeping the stage but how many of us really just push flightcases? most would do that as well as other jobs. if there is any amount of specalist skill involved I think that we deserve to be paid as such.

[Stu]

From someone who works his arse off, only to be paid the mininium wage, I do feel incredibe sorry for anyone who has to paid so low.

 

Baiscally it's a metaphor for all the companies out there to spit you in the face without actually having to pull their finger out and do it.

 

When I worked at Sainsburys I was on £5.25 an hour, and now I'm on £4.38 an hour.

 

Is it any wonder people get put off by low wages and choose a better job... (Same applies to Nursing and argueably more important jobs for society)

 

I understand Paul's point about the economy etc, and how it's a pretty fine balance etc etc, but without doing any research into it, I'm pretty sure we must live in one of the most expensive countries in Europe, and there must be a reason for this...

 

Stu

[Kate]

But surely the level of wage you earn shouldn't just be about your chosen field of employment, it should be about your level of skill in whatever field you've chosen. (You might be a natural born binman, or whatever, should you really be doomed to poverty just for choosing a job you're good at?? :** laughs out loud **: )

 

For example; if the difference in salary between what an office junior earns and what an office manager earns can be up to, oh I don't know, £20k? Then why should the difference between a junior theatre crew person (asm, board op, asst carp, that kind of thing) and a senior one (sm, chief lx, master carp) be about £10k at the most?

 

In this industry, where there are always going to be a lot of volunteers and amateurs, then a minimum wage will always be hard to implement, (although desirable) and I think the real changes need to come in improving earning potential at the top end of the scale, with particular reference to theatre.

 

ok, rant over! :unsure:

[Paul J Need]

But surely the level of wage you earn shouldn't just be about your chosen field of employment, it should be about your level of skill in whatever field you've chosen. (You might be a natural born binman, or whatever, should you really be doomed to poverty just  for choosing a job you're good at?? :unsure: )

Hi Kate,

 

Good points raised..... however it is all to do with supply and demand.

 

If an office building manager tried to get a couple of cleaners to work for the minimum wage... and NO ONE applied for the job, they would have to re-advertise, probably increase the wage until people did apply. As there are more people than jobs. its never usually a problem.

 

In theatre - (lets ignore the funding issue for now) so many people want to work under the bright lights of "theatre" - so management are aware that they can "get away" with paying as little as possible. So is 'medium regional rep theatre inc' needed a new Master Carpenter on £12,000pa, and no on applied they would have to increase the wage until someone did... however - cheap labour is easily available for all industries. Having a degree will not guarentee a reasonable starting salary anymore either - as people with degrees are - and excuse the expression - two a penny these days.

 

If a job come along and advertised as "not a lot of money" watch it be filled usually overnight! People have to pay the rent/mortgage, their bills, feed their families..... and they know someone will jump in before them to accept it.

 

I understand Paul's point about the economy etc, and how it's a pretty fine balance etc etc, but without doing any research into it, I'm pretty sure we must live in one of the most expensive countries in Europe, and there must be a reason for this...

 

Stu

On the matter of costs of living in the uk. Have you thought the reason why a bottle of coke costs 75p here but only 16p in Sri Lanka? The UK's labour costs are high - therefore things costs more.

[mark b]

Here is a little point that I tend to remind people of every now and again.

 

Are you willing to accept what you are being paid/(what your situation is)?

Then quit whineing and do something about it!

 

I used to be fed up with not getting paid on time. So being master of my destiny and being fed up with shouting at people I did something about it. Now it is a problem I no longer have to deal with.

It's People who are apathetic and not the job they do that are the problem. There is adequately paid work out there you just have to try harder to find it or change tack on your career. If you are just starting out in the industry then you cant expect to be on the same rates as a FOH engineer who has had ten or more years experience.

Then again what is an OK rate of pay? £5ph was the norm when I was a cassie. And I worked like the devil 60hours a week between two venues was not uncommon. When work was slack I looked for more. While looking for a way up in the industry. Eventual when I had the right skills I moved on and up. As a cassie I spent allot of time up in grids rigging lx and stuff, but I did not have responsibility for the work that I did. I was always working with supervision. If my work was actually checked or not is irrelevant. It was supposed to have been by my employers responsibility to oversee any work that was carried out by myself.

Thats another thing I have noticed. Wages are proportional to responsibility. One tends to increase in line with the other. If it ain't then there is something wrong!

[Kate]

Wages are proportional to responsibility. One tends to increase in line with the other. If it ain't then there is something wrong!

That was the point of my earlier post. That is how it should be but, it doesn't always happen like that. Like with that C-venues issue. In that instance if wages were proportional to responsibility then ace (as deputy technical manager) would have earned his entire fee in about the first three days of employment, if not less! :unsure:

[Rob]

What's the situation like in other Countries? Is a union based system like they have in the USA a viable option?

[Paul J Need]

What's the situation like in other Countries? Is a union based system like they have in the USA a viable option?

:unsure: Errrrrrrr........... the closed shop is now illegal..... and if what you are saying is.... join a union... and unless you are in the union you cannot work. Then we go back to good old days of Equity for example.. No Equity Card no job. No job, little chance of getting an Equity card.

 

The system sort of worked - until the unions got too big for thier boots and if you can remember as far back as me the Winter of discontent, the 3 day week, daily power cuts by power generator workers, or coal shortages, the binmen strikes.... they had a good thing going, some even a decent attitude to workers rights opposed to making the world all rosey and rich for themselves. This is why Mrs Thatcher went head first for the unions - and whatever your politics - frankly won!

 

It's a difficult question - one which we here will be unable to get close to answering. How do we improve standards or pay - and not price ourselves out of a job; to be able to get paid a decent wage without forcing the employer to go bust. As Stu said above it is indeed a fine, VERY fine balance with some rather unpleasant social extremes. The UK is the 4th richest country in the world - and to quote a post war PM - we have never had it so good. Really? The 'WE" however, are not the ALL - and I truly feel for people starting out on their career now. House prices beyond the vast number of hard working folk, higher taxes, blame culture........ its all rather depressing if you think about it too hard.

 

You could always go and grow olives in Italy however? B)

[mark b]

Having had experience of us I would not use it as a model. I went over to tech manage a show. Upon helping to push flightcases the entire crew stoped and refused to carry on untill they had spoken to thier union rep . Upon arrival union rep took me to one side and pointed out that I was taking away a job from one of his men and that work happens at one pace thiers and if I pressed any harder he would take the crew out and the rest of the staff with them! :o $300 later all were back at work :** laughs out loud **: and the client was explaining that this happens everywhere in the us and that it is the norm. Unions can be just as corrupt as the corporates. The crewq never saw any of the $300 I asked them. (after the out!) :unsure: