Chauvet Hurricane 1600 output issue

[partyanimallighting]

Hi all,

It's been a while since my last post but I've been stumped by a couple Chuavet Hurricane 1600's for a few days now. The units themselves are a fairly neat DMX capable model, small but with a good output. Their major issue is their low fluid sensor, which consists of an optical sensor that the fluid line passes through. Once an air bubble enters the tube, the "blue flashing light of death" appears. My solution in the past to this issue was to bypass the sensor completely by bridging the wires on the sensor harness. No more blue flashing light. If the machine runs out of fluid and the pump burns, it's my fault and my fault entirely and I can live with that as it's my responsibility to keep the machines topped up when in use. Anyway, on to the problem.

These two machines have a pump trigger issue. On start up the relay clicks and 120VAC is sent to the heater block. The "HEAT" reading on the display climbs steadily and the motherboard signal LEDs do what they're supposed to do, go from RED (cold), to PINK (warming up) to flashing BLUE (almost ready) to solid BLUE (ready to fog). But when I press the manual fog switch there's no output. So far I've tested the two optocouplers (817 and 3021) and the readings are OK. The DC output on the DB107 is fine and L7805 and BTA16 seem to be fine also. I'm just not getting the FOG switch to trigger the pump (the switch also tested OK).  I'm assuming that the BTA16 triac deals with the high amperage heater block alone and the 7805 is supplying the required voltage as the display and motherboard are working fine otherwise. Some feedback as to what I should be looking for would be great. Clearer pictures can also be posted.

Really hoping to get some feedback/assistance here.....

 

 

Edited April 15 by partyanimallighting

[KevinE]

I would say the relay does the heater and the triac does the pump based on the relative positions of the components. I assume you've checked/changed the pump as this is the most common problem.

[partyanimallighting]

Hi KevinE, yes, pumps are the normal issue when there's no or low output but the pump is fine and powers up when an external 120VAC is applied. These newer pumps are a lot better than those older SP-12A and SP-35's of the past and most times a simple O-ring swap-out normally brings a faulty pump back up to fully operational function. The fog machine itself is fully functional....up to the output stage. It goes through all processes correctly, relay switches 120VAC to the heater, thermocouple sensor from the heater sends signal to the motherboard, temperature climbs steadily in the display, signal LEDs change color as expected......then nothing.

[alistermorton]

If thee pump works with external power, but not when controlled by the board suggests maybe the triac controlling it, or whatever is controlling the triac, has failed. That would be my relatively uneducated guess. Triac swap should be relatively cheap and easy.

Edited April 16 by alistermorton

[partyanimallighting]

Thanks alistermorton, I discovered the problem but I'm still baffled. The pump functions perfectly with external AC power, no matter which terminal the AC hot or AC neutral go to. However......this is not the case with the AC feed from the motherboard. On testing, the pump refused to fire but when I reversed the live and neutral feed from the motherboard to the pump terminals, it functioned as it should. I know that there is a diode built into the armature/coil of the pump and this may be why the AC feed will only function on the respective terminals, live to live, neutral to neutral, on the pump. I don't recall encountering this problem with pumps in the past but the wiring polarity on other machines is defined via a thermal cutoff/protector/switch which slides into a groove on the pump's plastic housing. Martin and Antari pumps use this type of thermo protection to prevent overheating of the pump but these Chauvet 1600 models don't carry it. My new question is, if this diode defines a polarity for the pump terminals, why is direct AC not affected? Is this because of circuitry built into the fog machine's motherboard?

[indyld]

Not a Chauvet product, but I was scolded by another manufacturer for testing a pump the old skool way. 

"Applying 230 volts directly to the pump does nothing for the diagnosis.

Please assemble the device completely and then check whether the pump is controlled by PWM voltage via the circuit board

."

The pump worked when tested in a similar manner. 

 

[DrV]

12 hours ago, partyanimallighting said:

Thanks alistermorton, I discovered the problem but I'm still baffled. The pump functions perfectly with external AC power, no matter which terminal the AC hot or AC neutral go to. However......this is not the case with the AC feed from the motherboard. On testing, the pump refused to fire but when I reversed the live and neutral feed from the motherboard to the pump terminals, it functioned as it should. I know that there is a diode built into the armature/coil of the pump and this may be why the AC feed will only function on the respective terminals, live to live, neutral to neutral, on the pump. I don't recall encountering this problem with pumps in the past but the wiring polarity on other machines is defined via a thermal cutoff/protector/switch which slides into a groove on the pump's plastic housing. Martin and Antari pumps use this type of thermo protection to prevent overheating of the pump but these Chauvet 1600 models don't carry it. My new question is, if this diode defines a polarity for the pump terminals, why is direct AC not affected? Is this because of circuitry built into the fog machine's motherboard?

The diode is there effectively to change the bipolar sine wave of the mains (with a current pulse every 10mS) to a series of single sided pulses, one every 20mS, with a 10 mS dead time between them. I believe this is because the pump armature wouldn't be able to respond at 100Hz but is ok at 50Hz. The same effect could be achieved by using a permanent magnet armature but this would be more expensive than a diode.

Now, if the pump is being driven by a thyristor, rather than a triac, that too will produce pulses of a single polarity. If these happen to be, say, negative pulses and the pump diode is oriented to use positive pulses the diode in the pump will be reverse biassed and block the current. Reversing the pump connections turns the diode round and all is well.

Edit: if your mains frequency is 60Hz rather than 50Hz then read 8.3mS and 16.7mS respectively for 10mS and 20mS above

Edited April 17 by DrV

[partyanimallighting]

Thanks for all the responses so far!

indyld, as per your scolding from another manufacturer,

"Applying 230 volts directly to the pump does nothing for the diagnosis.Please assemble the device completely and then check whether the pump is controlled by PWM voltage via the circuit board."

But if the pump works with direct AC applied at least you can confirm that the issue is with the motherboard and not with the pump. And what about cheaper models of fog machines that use a simple setup of a wired remote (120VAC) and a thermostat to switch between the pump and the heater? This simple setup functions in these cheaper machines and I don't believe I've encountered polarity sensitive pump terminals in these scenarios (I could be wrong).

As DrV said, the diode changes the sine wave but what happens in the case of these cheaper machines? Does this type of simple wiring run the risk of damaging the pump? Operating voltage here is 120VAC @ 60hZ. I only discovered the issue with the reversed terminals by meterng the voltage at the pump terminals and I got 120V with the FOG button depressed but no fog output (albeit with the terminals in the wrong position). I then tested with an incandescent lamp connected and that worked fine (no diode). That's when I got the bright idea to reverse the pump terminals and the pump then worked. Old school ways 😀

[KevinE]

So how did the pumps get connected backwards?

[indyld]

Indeed, I was just trying to prove the pump. In my case, the issue turned out to be a control thing but I can't remember the details other than something was making the MCU block the firing of the pump. I wonder if, in your case, something similar is the case and your 'polarity fix' and the circuit arrangement is allowing a drive voltage across the pump regardless of the actual control system.

Edited April 18 by indyld

[partyanimallighting]

KevinE, the pump terminals are not polarized ie: + and - and when the 120VAC feed was connected to the pump one way from the motherboard, the pump would not work at all. Reversing these wires somehow solved the problem. indyld, I'm clueless as to why the reversing of the wires worked. I've never encountered the issue before and when I'm testing machines with no output, I normally first check for continuity across the heater block to confirm it's not blown/burnt out, then I check continuity of the 120VAC wire feeds from the motherboard to the heater block then I apply some AC directly to the pump to see if it's working. If everything's OK, then I power up the pump again with the fluid line in the reservoir so see if there's a proper flow of fluid through the heater or if there's a blockage. Normally, a direct AC feed to the pump powers it up regardless of which wire, LIVE or NEUTRAL is attached to which terminal.

[DrV]

4 hours ago, partyanimallighting said:

Reversing these wires somehow solved the problem. indyld, I'm clueless as to why the reversing of the wires worked

I already explained this in my post.

On 4/17/2024 at 9:13 PM, DrV said:

...Now, if the pump is being driven by a thyristor, rather than a triac, that too will produce pulses of a single polarity. If these happen to be, say, negative pulses and the pump diode is oriented to use positive pulses the diode in the pump will be reverse biassed and block the current. Reversing the pump connections turns the diode round and all is well.

In summary, if you've got a supply to the pump which only ever goes -ve w.r.t. neutral, and the pump diode only conducts when the supply is +ve w.r.t. neutral then there will never be any current flowing in either direction.

[sunray]

On 4/26/2024 at 9:10 AM, DrV said:

I already explained this in my post.

In summary, if you've got a supply to the pump which only ever goes -ve w.r.t. neutral, and the pump diode only conducts when the supply is +ve w.r.t. neutral then there will never be any current flowing in either direction.

Hopefully a picture speaks a thousand words.

 

Half wave rectificationwith 2 diodes in series with one reversed. No current can flow in either polarity:

Solution: reverse the load:

I recall this problem cropped up a lot of years back on some model railway points motors where different manufacturers opted for the opposite polirity and therefore incompatible.