Sennheiser paddles compatibility

[whitehousejamie]

Hi folks, any Sennheiser experts?

Looking to find out if the A-1031-U paddle is usable with ASA-1? If so, is a booster required  if cable length is relatively short?

All on channel 38.

Have been using just standard antennas on the ASA-1’s for a while with no problems but have the above paddles sat on the shelf so might aswell use them to improve the system if they are suitable.

Many thanks 

[sunray]

11 minutes ago, whitehousejamie said:

Hi folks, any Sennheiser experts?

Looking to find out if the A-1031-U paddle is usable with ASA-1? If so, is a booster required  if cable length is relatively short?

All on channel 38.

Have been using just standard antennas on the ASA-1’s for a while with no problems but have the above paddles sat on the shelf so might aswell use them to improve the system if they are suitable.

Many thanks 

Just don't install like this:

I've seen a number installed with the flat side facing the stage and turning them often (but not always) increases signal strength.

[Stuart91]

We've used this combination regularly for many years without problems. 

 

33 minutes ago, sunray said:

I've seen a number installed with the flat side facing the stage and turning them often (but not always) increases signal strength.

That's interesting, because they're supposed to be an omnidirectional element. 

We have had similar problems when customers have mounted directional paddles pointing off-stage... but omnis have been fine. 

[John_P]

Yes that should work fine - I've mixed and matched the omni and direction sennheiser paddles with a couple of their splitters into g3 and ew-d receivers and signal strength, range and reliability has always been a noticeable improvement over the regular aerials.

[Peter F]

It will work fine. The 1031 is a passive omni directional antenna. Although you will lose some signal in the cable you use to attach the antenna to the ASA1 you will generally gain a bit of advantage by being able to get a better place to physically locate the antenna for an improved reception.

Cheers,

Peter

[sunray]

7 hours ago, Stuart91 said:

We've used this combination regularly for many years without problems. 

 

That's interesting, because they're supposed to be an omnidirectional element. 

We have had similar problems when customers have mounted directional paddles pointing off-stage... but omnis have been fine. 

Unless I'm totally off piste, those paddles are log periodics (effectively a yagi) and directional.

One Event I attended as member of public PA had 2 paddles on top of commentary box, flat side to arena (way over 200m long) and only getting good coverage 1/2 way and dropping out badly by 3/4 I suggested trying to turn one and got a very luke warm reply from the very junior looking operator (who I later found out was managing a long established company with a view to taking it over). As soon as one was turned the coverage was loads better.

 

 

Yeah looking for info it looks like I've made a booboo and confusing the style in my pic with the triangular version.

Looks like my pic hasn't worked, hopefully this does.I'll try to use the excuse this was taken in very low level light.

Edited January 31, 2023 by sunray

[whitehousejamie]

Thank you all. Any recommendations for quality cabling? Max run probably 20m, and will an in-line booster be required at this distance?

[Simon Lewis]

For up to 20m and at reasonable cost, I use the VDC URM67 50 Ohm BNC to BNC. It's fairly stiff though...
Their RG8-X 50 Ohm BNC to BNC cable is a lot more flexible but about three times the price.

I'm wary of of using in-line boosters - you seem to boost the RF crud as well as the wanted signal!

[cedd]

Simon's right, boosters amplify everything - noise as well. You can't beat a well placed aerial and quality cable. URM67/RG213 is the way to go. Mine are Belden and are pretty flexible (within reason, they won't coil like mic cables). I keep my maximum cable lengths to 10m though. 

[sunray]

3 hours ago, cedd said:

Simon's right, boosters amplify everything - noise as well. You can't beat a well placed aerial and quality cable. URM67/RG213 is the way to go. Mine are Belden and are pretty flexible (within reason, they won't coil like mic cables). I keep my maximum cable lengths to 10m though. 

Mmmm yes.

I also use a selection of cables, mostly UR67/RG213 but also thinner RG58/RG8X/UR76. As I also work with other RF kit; PMR, Amateur, music links etc I have feeders up to 100m. and it's certainly not unknown for me to use 50m feeders for UHF radiomics.

 

If I am using aerial amplifiers I use mast head units directly at the aerial, no point in boosting a weak signal at the RX when a strong signal is present at the aerial. However I have got into the habit of using remote receivers on a 2 pair cable (signal and power) rather than excessive feeder length.

[taylord]

You'll be fine using those paddles with the ASA-1. Just remember to keep the a minimum of 1/4 wavelength apart. Ideally 1 wavelength.

I wouldn't bother with any sort of amplifier until you reach longer lengths of coax. As Cedd says, RG213 is the way to go as you'll only lose about 6db over a 30m run. RG58 is about 15db of loss.

[paulears]

The cable loss is rarely a problem because absolute maximum signal is not that important, but the avoidance of those no signal zones. You often see people put antennas close together, but what is the point of diversity? It’s so when one path from pack/mic to antenna is a poor one, the other is good. Put the antennas close together and that dead spot is dead for both. A stereo mic bar on a stand is not how to mount two antennas. I offered one show one of our mic stands which they refused saying the6 always did it like this, and the. Waited for the turn to stand in that one place where they cut out. Stage left to that spot is always a problem, but moving one antenna upstage, always cures it. I think it’s a reflection from a very big metal covered wall cancelling it out. 

[J Pearce]

There's a couple of uses for diversity receivers - the first is as you use them (and I often deploy in the same manner), the other main use case is spaced between a half and a full wavelength apart to eliminate dropouts due to multipath cancellations - when we had the latest Sony digital radio mics in on demo they were very keen for us to use 3/4 wavelength spacing to minimise the effects of multipath.

There is also some discussion to be had about using 2 antenna with 1 horizontal and 1 vertical, though if you're particularly worried about polarisation then a helical antenna may be a better solution.

Shure have some good articles discussing antenna spacing on their website.

[paulears]

This has always surprised me a little - the communication industry stack or bay directional antennas as a matter of course, but it's mainly to increase gain and decrease beam width, so I'd always linked that to not having any real multiparty reduction advantage, apart from the one gained by the increased focus of a two, or four coupling of antennas. Multipath reduction was the version I'd always thought was primarily to do with different paths to the same working area. Odd that Shure have sort of 'commandeered' gain boosting as a multiparty solution, when they occupy almost the same space. With typical paddle designs, ¼ wave side by side baying is quite possible, and is the most efficient, ¾ wavelength apart baying doesn't seem to offer and advantages (or disadvantages) over ¼ and I just struggle to see the close spacing really doing anything for multipath problems. I'm not sure if somewhere in a dim memory there was an issue with baying log-periodic - something about parasitic elements of one having an impact on the other antenna as distances are very similar. Jaybeam, before they morphed into Amphenol had a version of their 4 stack antennas that were horizontal across a boom, vertically polarised, with the standard power splitter harness, but it didn't last long - I wonder if this is the same issue, and why vertical stacking works best, but of course gain is their primary purpose. Interesting. Trantec always used to recommend wide spacing.

[chelgrian]

On 2/1/2023 at 12:07 PM, cedd said:

Simon's right, boosters amplify everything - noise as well. You can't beat a well placed aerial and quality cable. URM67/RG213 is the way to go. Mine are Belden and are pretty flexible (within reason, they won't coil like mic cables). I keep my maximum cable lengths to 10m though. 

You also have to be careful to not overload the input stage of he receiver. One venue I was involved with had terrible problems because they had installed boosters on medium length but high quality cable runs. This was providing so much signal it was saturating the receivers.

Removed boosters everything worked perfectly.

Edited February 4, 2023 by chelgrian