Help with re-connecting School lighting

[D_Y]

Hi all. I made a plea for help on 'The Control Booth' and the folk there were really helpful but said you all might have some more local knowledge and might be able to help.

 

We've been asked to help a local School reconnect the Lighting in their Theatre and we're running into issues with their LEDs. They've lost their previous tech guy and all the lights were disconnected for testing, so we've been working pretty much from scratch to get it all back up and running.

I don't have much experience (local Theatre group) but they really need the help for an upcoming Peter Pan performance next month. I'll try and explain the issue as best I can but still have some gaps in my understanding at this stage.

 

The setup is as follows:-

Showtec Showmaster 48 lighting desk

4x Trancension DDP-405 dimmer packs

14x Pulse Stagepar 108

6x Eurolite par 64

Waterfall effect light

(Downstairs:-

Star curtain

Fogger

'Beamz' wash light

DMX terminator)

 

Pictures- https://imgur.com/a/sfMJTfb#DiGgQEk

 

 

I'm used to a console where I can manually soft-patch lights (Z88 Jester) and have no real experience with dimmer packs, so things have become confusing.

 

We've managed to get the Eurolite Parcans working with one of the dimmer packs but I'm out of my depth when it comes to the LEDs. As it stands we definately have some of them overlapping with the Parcans and it's rapidly becoming confusing.

 

I was initially under the impression the LEDs were being powered from the dimmers but have been told that's not how it works. So I'm now lost when it comes to addressing them.

 

I do think they were/are in 4 channel mode, as a scribble strip on the desk had channels 4, 8 and 12 reserved as control channels. The few LEDs we did have working seemed to respond that way, too.

Assuming that's the case how would it be best to proceed? It's been suggested that I connect one fixture at a time into the console itself and note the channels used, which does sound like good advice. I just don't quite yet understand how the LEDs are wired up in the chain.

 

Any help is very much appreciated. Time in the space is limited, so I need a decent plan of attack for next time I go in.

 

 

 

I do realise I'm a bit out of my depth here but I'm keen to learn and really want to help the School. In the current climate the drama department has really suffered and the kids are losing interest in the Theatre.

 

 

(You can find my original post on the Control Booth here, which may be a bit clearer :https://www.controlb...66/#post-426190 -I hope it's OK to put in the link. It seems pretty friendly between you all)

 

Thanks in advance!

[indyld]

A freelance tech can sort this in a day.

 

Edit to add: ... during which time you learn enough to be autonomous next time.

Edited May 27, 2021 by indyld

[J Pearce]

Where is the school? There’s lots of freelance techs and small companies in want of work, and as indyld says it would be a day’s work for a tech and willing assistant (who might want to make notes along the way!).

[kgallen]

If reasonable control of all of that kit is required, then the Showmaster 48 is likely wholly inadequate as the lighting desk. It's a basic/cheap 2-preset 24-channel desk that will be fine for the dimmers. I suspect it was purchased with the dimmers and all of those other fixtures have been purchased at a later date with little understanding of how such multi-channel fixtures will be controlled. It will have capacity for a couple of the LED PARs in a basic mode if they are configured on the same DMX address, but you will quickly run out of control channels. Whilst I think you can probably run it in a 1-preset 48 channel mode, commoning will still be required and programming submaster states will be essential. Control of those LEDs will probably be clunky.

 

I agree a knowledgeable tech (pro or amateur) would be able to help out and advise, but expectations of what can be done with that kit need to be tempered!

[timsabre]

From the photos, it looks like the LED pars are just a general wash, so it would be fine to economise on DMX control channels by controlling them in pairs or 4's, by setting them to the same DMX address.

I also agree getting a tech to help would be easiest, but the basic premise is that LED pars always run off "hard power" or "permanent power" - you don't connect them to dimmers. Then the DMX is just daisy chained around every fixture in turn and also into the dimmers. Then set the addresses so nothing overlaps - so you could have 2 dimmer packs at address 001 (channels 1-4) and address 005 (channels 5-8). Then your LED pars, if in 4ch mode, can be addressed starting at 009 - to fit within the desk channels you will need to pair them up by setting a pair of fixtures to the same DMX address.

 

[Junior8]

We've been asked to help a local School reconnect the Lighting in their Theatre and we're running into issues with their LEDs. They've lost their previous tech guy and all the lights were disconnected for testing, so we've been working pretty much from scratch to get it all back up and running.

I don't have much experience (local Theatre group) but they really need the help for an upcoming Peter Pan performance next month. I'll try and explain the issue as best I can but still have some gaps in my understanding at this stage.

 

Sorry D_Y you really shouldn't get involved in this - you have no role in the school and they shouldn't really be asking you. There are a number of things about this install that I don't like from a quick glance and they need to pay someone to come in and look at it for them properly right through. The advice to employ an experienced freelance tech is the right route. My advice would be to contact the nearest Arts Centre or FE College with performance lighting - there is one in virtually every Hants district council area - and ask for their advice. Most of their techs aren't that busy at the moment....

Edited May 27, 2021 by Junior8

[IRW]

We've been asked to help a local School reconnect the Lighting in their Theatre and we're running into issues with their LEDs. They've lost their previous tech guy and all the lights were disconnected for testing, so we've been working pretty much from scratch to get it all back up and running.

I don't have much experience (local Theatre group) but they really need the help for an upcoming Peter Pan performance next month. I'll try and explain the issue as best I can but still have some gaps in my understanding at this stage.

 

Sorry D_Y you really shouldn't get involved in this - you have no role in the school and they shouldn't really be asking you. There are a number of things about this install that I don't like from a quick glance and they need to pay someone to come in and look at it for them properly right through. The advice to employ an experienced freelance tech is the right route. My advice would be to contact the nearest Arts Centre or FE College with performance lighting - there is one in virtually every Hants district council area - and ask for their advice. Most of their techs aren't that busy at the moment....

 

+1. The dimmer pack 'install' is atrocious, for a start, and I'd be very interested to see a close up of whatever is holding the lighting bars into the roof trusses- it might be fine, but purely on the basis of a casual observation from the photo, alarm bells are ringing!

Edited May 27, 2021 by IRW

[Charlotte_R]

We've been asked to help a local School reconnect the Lighting in their Theatre and we're running into issues with their LEDs. They've lost their previous tech guy and all the lights were disconnected for testing, so we've been working pretty much from scratch to get it all back up and running.

I don't have much experience (local Theatre group) but they really need the help for an upcoming Peter Pan performance next month. I'll try and explain the issue as best I can but still have some gaps in my understanding at this stage.

 

Sorry D_Y you really shouldn't get involved in this - you have no role in the school and they shouldn't really be asking you. There are a number of things about this install that I don't like from a quick glance and they need to pay someone to come in and look at it for them properly right through. The advice to employ an experienced freelance tech is the right route. My advice would be to contact the nearest Arts Centre or FE College with performance lighting - there is one in virtually every Hants district council area - and ask for their advice. Most of their techs aren't that busy at the moment....

 

+1. The dimmer pack 'install' is atrocious, for a start, and I'd be very interested to see a close up of whatever is holding the lighting bars into the roof trusses- it might be fine, but purely on the basis of a casual observation from the photo, alarm bells are ringing!

 

Looks like they're attached by threaded rod to the beams via pieces of angle. It doesn't look terrible to me. I agree re: the dimmer packs though.

[IRW]

Looks like they're attached by threaded rod to the beams via pieces of angle. It doesn't look terrible to me. I agree re: the dimmer packs though.

 

 

As I said, it might be fine, but if you look at the bar/roof truss on the left hand side, you can't see any corresponding plate on the opposite side of the beam to where the angle bracket is. Basically, what is (or is not) holding the metal plates to the (wooden) roof truss could* be questionable in my book, and I'd also be a tad concerned about possible twisting forces on the wooden beam*- I thought that usually this sort of affair would consist of a custom metal bracket around the wood, such that the force acts straight down underneath the centre. Obviously any such forces in this particular situation are (probably) fairly minimal, but the point still stands to be aware of.

 

 

Anyway, this is all conjecture that's not necessarily directly helpful but as Junior8 alludes to, 'good practice' seems to be a little bit on the hit and miss side from the general evidence provided, and it could well be that the OP is opening a can of worms that would greatly benefit from the assistance of a suitably insured/experienced freelancer!

 

 

 

*risk assessment dependent

[kerry davies]

Hi Daniel, welcome to BR. The bottom line here is that it appears that you are neither qualified nor experienced enough to do the job and so are almost certainly not insured either. Listen to the advice from others and tell them they need to give you some money to hire in experienced, insured help otherwise safety becomes an issue.

[ojc123]

Hi Daniel, welcome to BR. The bottom line here is that it appears that you are neither qualified nor experienced enough to do the job and so are almost certainly not insured either. Listen to the advice from others and tell them they need to give you some money to hire in experienced, insured help otherwise safety becomes an issue.

 

I agree wholeheartedly with this.

 

In your initial post you say, "I do realise I'm a bit out of my depth here..." I think part of realising that is to accept that this is something you can't guarantee to do safely and that you might end up liable for something you didn't realise was a problem.

 

When I started using our school system in the 80s I knew nothing about stage lighting. I was in a state of unconscious incompetence*. Your next statement would have applied to me, "..I'm keen to learn and really want to help the School. In the current climate the drama department has really suffered and the kids are losing interest in the Theatre."

 

I look back and shudder to think of some of the things I did then. I got away with it. No-one was hurt and times were different. You can't assume that the current system is safe, many school systems suffer from extreme neglect and misuse. After using the school lighting system for a year or two I discovered it was incorrectly wired and dangerous. It is to your credit that you admit that you aren't sure about some really rather basic things.

 

My advice is to admit this and either get a professional in to help you set up a safe and effective system or let the school know that you are in a position of conscious incompetence* and walk away.

 

* These aren't insults. they're part of the best model of learning I ever heard. By definition, I was never aware of getting above level 3.

 

4 Unconscious competence - You know what you're doing so well that you don't have to think about it.

3 Conscious competence - You know what you're doing but you have to think about it.

2 Conscious incompetence - You know enough about something to know that you know that you don't know how to do it properly.

1 Unconscious incompetence - You don't even know that you don't know how to do something.

[Junior8]

Just to expand my previous post the key issue here for me (and Kerry I suspect) regarding voluntary help is not competence but accountability. Years ago I would have gone along and helped out in a situation like this if asked without a second thought, In 2021 I would simply refuse without a second thought since while I would back my competence I do not have single piece of paper to prove it or any insurance cover either. Forty years ago this didn't matter - these days it does and that chain of accountability has to be paid for. Edited May 28, 2021 by Junior8

[D_Y]

Thanks for the advice everyone and I will take all that on board with due concern.

 

Just to clarify, the School didn't directly ask me to come along. One of the other chaps from our group was brought in as he already had a bit of involvement with their setup, so I am just a helper! It was tasked to me to reach out for a bit of advice online. I was initially just meant to program the desk.

 

I think the school's hope was that as everything was working a few weeks ago (to their requirements) prior to the PAT testing that it would be an easy enough job reconnecting and addressing everything. (Everything was still connected, just no response from the desk).

 

I am indeed coming to the conclusion that the job may be beyond me and the safety concerns do ring alarm bells. The annoying thing is it feels we were fairly close besides the LEDs.

 

I will mention about getting someone in and will put my fellow worker onto this thread so he can read your concerns.

 

As the newcomer and underling to all this it's unpleasant to have to break bad news but I'm sure it's for the best. Enough of you are voicing the same issues.

 

 

Thanks again

 

(Also thanks Timsabre- That's in line with what we've managed to sort out so far and makes good sense. I will pass that on along with all the other advice in case it helps)

Edited May 28, 2021 by D_Y

[Jivemaster]

If all those items were supplied through the usual education supply contracting process the best thing to do is refer back to the original suppliers, the people who installed everything should have the original specification and drawings and maybe have a hard copy of the state in which the desk was originally supplied. PLUS they should have liability insurance for the work they did and the work they need to do. YES there will be a cost to the school, that's the cost of todays litigatious society.

[sunray]

If all those items were supplied through the usual education supply contracting process the best thing to do is refer back to the original suppliers, the people who installed everything should have the original specification and drawings and maybe have a hard copy of the state in which the desk was originally supplied. PLUS they should have liability insurance for the work they did and the work they need to do. YES there will be a cost to the school, that's the cost of todays litigatious society.

I'm finding stage equipment is being sourced 'in house' these days as the 'education process' doesn't work for such specific systems. Yes there are still hoops but they're not difficult, pretty standard stuff; insurance, tickets, police checks...

 

I think the school's hope was that as everything was working a few weeks ago (to their requirements) prior to the PAT testing that it would be an easy enough job reconnecting and addressing everything. (Everything was still connected, just no response from the desk).

 

I am indeed coming to the conclusion that the job may be beyond me and the safety concerns do ring alarm bells. The annoying thing is it feels we were fairly close besides the LEDs.

 

(Also thanks Timsabre- That's in line with what we've managed to sort out so far and makes good sense. I will pass that on along with all the other advice in case it helps)

I find the way to find out what/here a device is; first sketch the lights with lots of space to add notes. Fade the whole desk up, every fader, that will show what's not working and make a note. Then drop one at a time. That way the fader and all colours for a multichannel device are upregardless of where they are patched to/appear on the desk.

 

 

Particularly usefull with only one light connected to the desk too.

Edited May 28, 2021 by sunray