Next step up Video Camera

[richardash1981]

I'll try and be more specific ...First a little history.2003-2007 I did a lot with student TV at university, but all SD and composite (computer connections DV over firewire). Since I graduated I haven't owned or used a video camera/camcorder, but I did (2009?) get a Canon 450D DSLR - which is stills only (no video modes).

 

Since lockdown I have had ot get back into doing video production, for online consumption, to support both church and other voluntary groups.

So far, work's bargain basement smartphone (Honour 7S) has proved sufficient - it shoots reasonable 1080p30 video provided the light is OK. Audio has to be off-board, but I have solutions for that. The lens is typical - a fixed, very short focal length wide angle job. Sensor is 13M pixels, you can't digitally zoom very far before it looks terrible.Whilst everything was being filmed at home, either by me or by contributors on their phones, there was no reason to want (or way to use) a better camera. Everything we have done so far has been not-live, so recording video clips and editing later (my PC is not pleased!).

 

As things start to somewhat ease (at the moment) this is starting to change, and the limitations of a basic smartphone as camera are becoming clear:

1. Some church services will happen in person, with some congregation present, in the church building. Even if we don't stream live, recording as-live will make production a lot easier, and the filming less disruptive to those present in person.
2. I'm trying to produce some wildlife / industrial history content for a local nature reserve, i.e. flowers, insects, aretfacts rather than just talking heads.

In both cases the primary problem (as I see it) is not having a zoom lens, so I am stuck with a fixed field of view. For recording, I can get away with sticking the camera in the face of the talker to get a reasonable picture, but this doesn't work well in a socially distanced live event, or with wildlife!

All of this suggests that it would easier to have a "better" video camera. My question is that the the world has moved so far in the last 13 years I'm not sure what "better" means any more!

The choices seem to be:

• A "compact" stills camera with a reasonable optical zoom which shoots HD video
• A dedicated video camera / camcorder (presumably full HD)
• a newer DSLR capable of video shooting (advantage - another Canon would take existing lenses listed below)

There seems to be a gap in the "video camera" market between the very cheap (which are presumably not worth bothering with) and the professional (and suitably expensive) level cameras, with the "prosumer" level having gone?

Other thoughts:

• If I'm going to spend (my own) money on a better camera, it should probably be one which could be used for live streaming in the future, as well as video recoding in the field?
• The Canon 450D has earned it's keep (30000+ images) but does not count as a modern camera any more.
• I've now got a nice Canon 18-135mm optically stabilized lens (kit lens for the 5D when new) on the Canon, as well as the original 15-55 kit lens
• I can't imagine wanting (or being able to display) more than full HD resolution.
• I'm not clear-cut on a budget, but I presume spending less than £100 will not be an improvement, and I can't imagine spending as much as £1000.
• All the computers within reach are running Linux ...

So, anyone like to suggest what they like for shooting video and would offer a reasonable level of flexibility without breaking the bank?

 

 

I had a quick look, and it seems the first body in the same series as the Canon 450D to shoot decent video was the 650D. It also looks like Linux can receive the liveview feed from this (and subsequent) Canon DSLRs over USB, and use it as webcam-substitute video input (via gphoto2), but I haven't found a definite statement about resolution yet.

[Shez]

Have a look at the Z Cam E2C. Fantastic camera that will also live stream. You can use your existing lenses with an adapter.

The whole range is quite modular which is both good and bad. You'll need to arrange for things like viewfinder / monitor which may break the budget.

[GaryNattrass]

Well you can buy a stills camera that does video or buy a proper video camera. (ducks for cover as trolls come our to moan about all that shallow cinematic depth of field and shooting in 8k ultra HD)

I bought one of these around ten years ago and it is still serving me well shooting full 1920x1080 50i 0r 25psf at 100mbs with a superb AVC Intra codec that we still use for most of our HD delivery at SKY TV.

 

It does sound too and you dont have to mess around bolting too many things on just to make it work and with proper XLR balanced inputs it is very flexible with the four tracks that I can zap down HD SDI to a SDI to USB 3 converter box that I got for £109 off Amazon that goes into OBS with some go pro type HD cameras via HDMI and a £10 HDMI to USB converter.

 

OK the lens is not going to give you cinematic shallow depth of field but it will give you way more control over zoom and focus. Besides you are shooting video here and not cinema so forget trying to see focus on a DSLR and pulling or letting the auto do it's wandering stuff.Ok many will flame me but I work in broadcast sound and video not stills so I use a video camera that is still valid for full broadcast HD. If your PC struggles it also has lovely 720p or even SD codecs available at lower bit rates or you can shoot full HD at 50mbs to enable more card space.

 

I even have pre sets that were done for video and film to BBC specifications by the lovely Alan Roberts and have shot all sorts of sport, drama, docos and live events with two of these with not one single problem or dropped frame from the robust codec and card system that works on a raid system.

 

OK my camera cost £10k new and a decent Libec tripod was a few more hundred but there is one for sale in Germany inc 6 months warranty and I am tempted myself as it is bargain for a full pro HD P2 camera kit inc lens etc:

 

https://www.ebay.co....nsAAOSwioJfJDpZ

 

 

 

 

SDI to USB 3 converter: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Capture-Recorder-Through-Streaming-ezcap262/dp/B07SRSNLLX/ref=sr_1_13?crid=24P0HS0N94P5I&dchild=1&keywords=sdi+to+usb+3.0+video+capture+card&qid=1599429790&sprefix=SDI+to+USB+3%2Caps%2C203&sr=8-13

 

HDMI to USB converter: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mini-HDMI-to-USB-2-0-Video-Capture-Card-Adapter-1080P-HD-Recorder-Box-For-Window/293667152390?_trkparms=aid%3D1110009%26algo%3DSPLICE.COMPLISTINGS%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D225076%26meid%3D29b70d365a7c43be84bfdf6cdca00d37%26pid%3D100011%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D12%26sd%3D383584082843%26itm%3D293667152390%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D0%26pg%3D2047675%26algv%3Ddefault%26brand%3DUnbranded&_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850

 

I have three of these tripods too and great value: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Libec-H50-75MM-BOWL-Fluid-Head-LIBEC-T58-1-stage-Aluminium-tripod-legs-bag/264837025132?hash=item3da9844d6c:g:0FoAAOSwAGRfPDM1

 

P.S for a little more you can get the next version from a UK dealer here: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Panasonic-AG-HPX371E-P2-HD-4-2-2-Camcorder-with-17x-HD-Lens-64Gb-P2-Card/254695054675?hash=item3b4d021d53:g:7zgAAOSwNKdfP7cd

Edited September 6, 2020 by GaryNattrass

[mac.calder]

You might find that a lot of SLR/stills cameras will cap their recording length at 29 minutes 59 seconds - so that may certainly need consideration. This cap was due to an EU import tariff that was applied to video camera imports in '06 - and the definition of a "video camera" - recording 30min +. So many of the manufacturers just crippled their camera firmware so as to avoid the tariff.

[GaryNattrass]

You might find that a lot of SLR/stills cameras will cap their recording length at 29 minutes 59 seconds - so that may certainly need consideration. This cap was due to an EU import tariff that was applied to video camera imports in '06 - and the definition of a "video camera" - recording 30min +. So many of the manufacturers just crippled their camera firmware so as to avoid the tariff.

 

Never heard that one but plenty about DSLR cameras overheating though.

 

 

 

[revbobuk]

I went for a Canon Camcorder - the Vixia range are good / cheap and have clean HDMI output, plus it serves as a decent camcorder for personal use. Add an HDMI to USB3 capture card and you can use it as a good webcam. I got the HF-R806. Drawbacks for livestreaming are that you have to be able to reach it to turn it on, so we're getting a PTZOptics to mount permanently in the Church, plus a bullet cam for a second shot. But if I had a place to put a tripod, I would stick with the Canon.

[GaryNattrass]

I agree with the above if you want something more compact and I too have a Canon Vixia but the older HF11 which is pretty good for facilities inc mic external inputs.

 

I have used it as a B camera to the Panasonic P2 ENG cameras and it even has a remote for record and zoom etc.

[mac.calder]

Never heard that one but plenty about DSLR cameras overheating though.

 

Reference here

 

The relevant section:

 

Still image digital cameras with video capture capabilities are classified under subheading code 8525 80 91 or under subheading code 8525 80 99 if they meet the following criteria:

 

They are capable, using the maximum storage capacity, of recording in a quality at or exceeding 800 x 600 pixels at 23 frames per second, at least 30 minutes in a single sequence of video

Some cameras can continuously record video for longer than 30 minutes, but the captured images are recorded in separate files that last less than 30 minutes. Unless the camera is automatically switched off after 30 minutes, the capturing of images in separate files that last less than 30 minutes does not influence the duration of the continuous video recording capability of the camera.

 

Not sure if the tariffs are still there for video cameras. Overheating may be another aspect of it? not sure...

[paulears]

That tariff has been in place since the late 70s. That was when the Japanese started the 'E' versions or the '01" on the end of the model. Cameras with a blanked off video input BNC so they were not video recorders. I'm not sure why they just didn't increase the price and pay the tariff - we're they worried about grey imports? I seem to remember Sony in particular were. I remember kitting out a Shell Oil studio with DXC 1200 cameras and the domestic models we wanted to interface couldn't record video. Wen had the same thing with the cameras Gary likes many years later - the 300 and 370, marketed here as 301 and 371, the '1' not having a video in. I do remember our video service engineer discovering that Hitachi had simply taken the video connector off the board, sealed the case hole and then used a firmware update to prevent the menu item being engaged. He did one of the fix pixel fixes done by powering up while holding down a button and discovered the greyed out menu item came back. He soldered on a socket and bingo the camcorder could record. He did the mod on half a dozen of the ones we sold.

 

When you were spending maybe a couple of grand on a product back then, a few hundred extra in duty really wouldn't;t have put people off.

[richardash1981]

Thank you all for the feedback, a lot to think about here.

At least I now have some idea of what sort of camcorder/video camera is worth looking into vs. some the "too cheap to be true" lookalikes which the web is full of!

[GaryNattrass]

Just as a footnote and bearing in mind that there is so much 4k and 8k marketing these days I was always told to shoot end deliver in the format that is required.

 

Even at SKY we still only broadcast 1080 HD and UHD which is less than 4k and as for shooting cinematic images that tends to be for the dreamers and Vimeo generation.

 

For streaming etc I would rather have a good looking stable 720p picture rather than trying to push the barriers and with a decent front end such as my P2 camera I would imagine that most people are non the wiser especially as most of the streaming services may limit anything else to 720p anyway and add the usual conversion and codec problems etc.

 

Good luck with your choices but as a sound supervisor who also does video never underestimate the connectivity that a pro camera can give and its flexibility if you are doing different projects.

Edited September 8, 2020 by GaryNattrass

[chelgrian]

Thank you all for the feedback, a lot to think about here.

At least I now have some idea of what sort of camcorder/video camera is worth looking into vs. some the "too cheap to be true" lookalikes which the web is full of!

 

 

Some points to ponder:

 

As you want portability then it's far easier to do this with an all in one camera than it is with a rigged up mirrorless or dslr or even a pro level camera meant for digital cinema.

 

There is lots of pushing of large sensor sizes, in your case this isn't what you want you don't need cinematic razor thin depth of field. For example ENG (news gathering) still works on small sensors and B4 lens mounts.

 

You care about the quality of the codec in the camera for recording but for streaming all you care about is either having a clean output to capture or built in streaming ability.

 

The below CVP search gives you a list of prosumer and upwards camcorders

 

https://cvp.com/catalogue/department/cameras/category/camcorders/sort/priceasc/page/1

 

As you can see you end up going well in excess of 1K ex-vat before you get to anything much better than a rigged up smartphone. Other than the fact a dedicated video camera generally won't overheat.

 

It's probably best if when you find something you think might do what you want to post what you are thinking of buying here the feedback can be given.

[richardash1981]

As you want portability then it's far easier to do this with an all in one camera than it is with a rigged up mirrorless or dslr or even a pro level camera meant for digital cinema.

 

There is lots of pushing of large sensor sizes, in your case this isn't what you want you don't need cinematic razor thin depth of field. For example ENG (news gathering) still works on small sensors and B4 lens mounts.

That makes sense. I have no requirement for a large sensor. I would be prepared to accept an APS-C size sensor if it provided a way to not duplicate having a good-quality zoom lens (by using the one I already have on my existing DSLR) - this doesn't seem to be the case.

 

As you can see you end up going well in excess of 1K ex-vat before you get to anything much better than a rigged up smartphone. Other than the fact a dedicated video camera generally won't overheat.

 

It's probably best if when you find something you think might do what you want to post what you are thinking of buying here the feedback can be given.

 

What I'm hoping to get well before that (which my Smartphone doesn't have) is an optical zoom lens, so I can either be further from a subject, or just get small objects to fill the screen! I spent some time today with Grasshoppers - very tolerant of me getting close, but even at 50mm range, a grasshopper does not fill the frame with the usual smart-phone wide angle lens.

Thinking at the moment:

• Given the positive comments from others I am inclined to stick with a Canon, so that the setting abbreviations and so on match the DSLR I know and use regularly! At the moment I'm not seeing a massive difference between the leading brands (or they wouldn't all have such vocal followings!).
• I'm quite happy to buy decent second hand rather than new - this is ultimately a hobby purchase not a job, and all the candidates are solid state storage (I would not readily buy anything with tape heads used!).

At the moment the options seem to be:

• ~£400 for a G or XA series (Canon's professional branded series)
• ~£100 for one of the better (maybe slightly older) consumer cameras, subject to checking specs for format, a microphone input socket, clean HDMI output. Current candidates are HF100/HF10/HF11, R800, R56 depending on what is available.

I have been finding the Canon Camera Museum a useful resource for checking specs (like all the cameras which only had a microphone input in their USA models, or what is the same camera with differing amounts of on-board flash memory).

[Dave m]

Are you aware of reversing rings? You can get a reasonable macro out of a a standard kit lens on a canon dslr (d700)From memory less than £50 and you demount the zoom lens, stick the adaptors on each end, joined by cable, and fit the lens again.Because the lens is now reversed, it gives a macro result.

You're not going to win wildlife photographer of the year but with care you get good results

It doesn't answer your other questions but may help

[alistermorton]

I have a set of extenders which go between the lens and camera which do the same job on my Fuji. Turns the 23 and 35 mm lenses into rather useful close focusing macro lenses, and because like the reversing rnigs they're just tubes (albeit with electrical connections) there's no optics to get cloudy or dusty. or degrade the image.