Tungsten lighting (and fluorescent)

[Marineboy63]

What are peoples views on the long term future of Tungsten lighting?

 

 

Despite the exemption, is it inevitable that once the big companies embrace LED, supply will dry up, prices will go up and we'll all be sucked along whether we want to or not.

 

Should venues be saving up funds for a big financial hit in five or ten years from now?

[J Pearce]

I'm working to a policy of not buying any further tungsten based fixtures (practicals excepted), and actively pushing for investment into replacing with LED.

 

I don't think tungsten lamps will disappear imminently, but the less common ones might end of line soon and go up in price (seen the price of a P28S recently?). I'd certainly want my management aware that we should be planning on a significant investment within ten years, whether in piecemeal stages or as a one hit overhaul.

 

There's also a factor of social responsibility and marketing - do you become liable for bad press if you stick with tungsten 'too long'? Is there valuable marketing to be had in shouting about your new 'eco-friendly' lighting installation?

[gyro_gearloose]

The best time to be investing on new LED kit was five years ago. The second best time is now! Osram will be, or maybe already has, ceased production of PAR lamps, and have recalled all lamps made after November 2016 as their quality was so poor. GE has stopped making them as well, and Phillips may well follow suit. All of which means if you have a large Parcan rig then you really should be looking at replacing them sharpish! T- class lamps such as the T26, T19, T29, etc, and HPL lamps will be available for longer because there aren't that many affordable theatrical LED profiles or Fresnels which could replace a Tungsten rig, but that situation won't last forever. Edited January 6, 2020 by gyro_gearloose

[sunray]

From my point of view as a teeny insy winsy AmDram minnow in the pond of mega sized systems and conpanies, there is no economical way to go LED. My own kit consists of a couple of dozen dated fittings Patt23's, 308's and the like and a few LED PAR's. Realisticly one of my plays is unlikely to clock up more than 200 hours of lamp life or £20 of energy and at about 2 plays per year my running costs are irrevevant. But replacing those fittings with LED versions, which I fully accept could be better all round, will never be economical. Additionally at my age there is limited 'lamp life' left in me and I sincerely hope I have minimal investments left to make.

[willjam39]

I agree with the cost to Amdram groups being too high atm. I recently started investing more into LED for my various groups but its only viable because I work with so many groups doing multiple shows a year.

 

Also add the costs of changing the cabling in the smaller venues and most groups will need a desk update to use LED effectively and I don't see many smaller groups changing anytime soon

[Marineboy63]

I agree with the cost to Amdram groups being too high atm. I recently started investing more into LED for my various groups but its only viable because I work with so many groups doing multiple shows a year.

 

Also add the costs of changing the cabling in the smaller venues and most groups will need a desk update to use LED effectively and I don't see many smaller groups changing anytime soon

 

I completely agree about the costs of changing lanterns and wiring. But for how much longer will T series lamps be available?

Edited January 7, 2020 by Marineboy63

[adam2]

I suspect that the more common incandescent lamps will be available for years to come, but availability of more obscure types will decline. GLS lamps are still available on line despite manufacture or import having been prohibited for some years.

 

If incandescent fixtures see very little use, then stockpiling lamps could be considered. If use is more significant, then LEDs will pay for themselves via reduced energy use.

 

Tungsten lighting is rapidly going the way of carbon arcs, gas lighting, and oil lamps. All of which are still used today, but are not exactly mainstream or popular lighting technologies. I can remember when the local hardware shop sold gas mantles and the more common oil lamp wicks and glasses. Such items are still available today, but only from a handful of specialist suppliers.

 

I can remember when GLS lamps came in DOZENS of different voltages, most of them in a choice of wattages. These days the choice is much reduced. How many people these days want a 160 volt, 80 watt incandescent lamp?

 

 

 

 

 

[sunray]

I agree with the cost to Amdram groups being too high atm. I recently started investing more into LED for my various groups but its only viable because I work with so many groups doing multiple shows a year.

 

Also add the costs of changing the cabling in the smaller venues and most groups will need a desk update to use LED effectively and I don't see many smaller groups changing anytime soon

 

I completely agree about the costs of changing lanterns and wiring. But for how much longer will T series lamps be available?

My own stock until about 5 years ago consisted of 2 Patt 23's which I ripped from a works canteen/social space many years before. My field has always been sound biased but work with others on regular events and borrowing kit has been easy. I started picking bits up when I started getting more involved with local AmDram with very limited existing lighting, I think £155 for 26 fitting + £100 for a pair of profiles & £31 for 6 eurolite PAR 64 LED and say £200 for dimmer packs, hook clamps, safeties etc. plus £120 for a 48 channel desk and flight case.

£600 for a very useable lighting rig, I fully understand it is not 'state of the art' but I can put on a light rig to outshine [sorry pun not intended] any of the groups I help.Now I look at reliability: apart from the odd lamp blowing or lampholder overheating there is nothing else to go wrong, the same cannot be said for the LED fittings which I see mentioned on line far more often.So far I have not blown a bulb and have a stock of about 20 so I see my rig outlasting me.

 

[Tomo]

The best comparisons to make is probably vacuum tubes and floppy disks.

There's probably only one or two places in the world still making them in very low quantities, as well as a few in various warehouses.

 

They're now seriously expensive, and often of poor quality.

 

You can currently buy a single floppy disk from Amazon for about £4 - I'm sure you used to get 25 disks for that!

[chelgrian]

The best time to be investing on new LED kit was five years ago. The second best time is now! Osram will be, or maybe already has, ceased production of PAR lamps, and have recalled all lamps made after November 2016 as their quality was so poor. GE has stopped making them as well, and Phillips may well follow suit. All of which means if you have a large Parcan rig then you really should be looking at replacing them sharpish! T- class lamps such as the T26, T19, T29, etc, and HPL lamps will be available for longer because there aren't that many affordable theatrical LED profiles or Fresnels which could replace a Tungsten rig, but that situation won't last forever.

 

Osram have discontinued 110v PARs a while ago they attempted to oursource production to China but the bulbs were not up to snuff and they were all recalled for being dangerous. In the meantime the US based factory had binned their tooling and the cost of restarting production was far to high for it to be economical thus they just stopped supplying them. GE have ceased production of all PARs but are still supplying their remaining inventory until it runs out.

 

Philips are still making them but it's only a matter of time.

[adam2]

PAR lamps are a bit of a special case, especially the large ones, they are hard to make, the challenges being in glass working rather than being strictly electrical.

 

Regular types of incandescent are not that hard to manufacture, they have been made for over 100 years, and I suspect that manufacture will carry on far into the future, probably of doubtful quality and at very high prices, and limited to the more popular types.

 

And meanwhile LEDs continue to get better and cheaper.

 

 

 

[musht]

Low pressure sodium, SOX, are now no longer made anywhere in the World, Philips in Hamilton was the last factory

 

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/local-news/end-era-remaining-70-jobs-17960244

 

Complex lamps may disappear into history.

[Junior8]

I agree with the cost to Amdram groups being too high atm. I recently started investing more into LED for my various groups but its only viable because I work with so many groups doing multiple shows a year.

 

Also add the costs of changing the cabling in the smaller venues and most groups will need a desk update to use LED effectively and I don't see many smaller groups changing anytime soon

 

Well yes but I wouldn't be able to count the number of halls of various kinds visited where Strand and indeed Furse and even in some cases Major equipment over forty and sometimes fifty years old is still in regular use. (Leave alone the thousands of 243s that must still be working away in professional houses) It is still there a) because it was built like a battleship but mainly b) because back then someone was wiling to pay what in today's money would be seen as unrealistically high purchase prices. This stuff was not cheap; ever. Some of it will probably be on its fourth control. It has stayed there quietly working away while everything else around it has been replaced more than once. Ir owes nobody anything and may be it is time to bite the bullet and start fund raising.

Edited January 8, 2020 by Junior8

[willjam39]

Well yes but I wouldn't be able to count the number of halls of various kinds visited where Strand and indeed Furse and even in some cases Major equipment over forty and sometimes fifty years old is still in regular use. (Leave alone the thousands of 243s that must still be working away in professional houses) It is still there a) because it was built like a battleship but mainly b) because back then someone was wiling to pay what in today's money would be seen as unrealistically high purchase prices. This stuff was not cheap; ever. Some of it will probably be on its fourth control. It has stayed there quietly working away while everything else around it has been replaced more than once. Ir owes nobody anything and may be it is time to bite the bullet and start fund raising.

 

I totally agree about how well the current lighting rigs have soldiered on and will continue to do so until the bulbs run out but most groups don't seem to realise the cost of replacement because they haven't had to for years. The people who spent the cash on the expensive strand systems 30-40 years ago are rarely still around to remind people how big an investment it was then. Also people see the price of a cheap DJ par and wonder why your saying a light costs 3-4 times as much when you need to replace the Fresnals.

[alistermorton]

This last point is very important when the purse strings of small amateur groups are controlled by non technical folks - they do a google search, and come across a "7x10W RGBW slim par" for 40 quid and wonder why you're pitching at around a grand for your preferred solution, or why you can't light your show with a rig of 100 quid eye candy movers instead of the Clay Paky/Robe/Martin/ETC etc device you really need.

 

I've come across a group where they had a good, well maintained (but of course, ageing) small rig of P23s, P123s and P60s plus a disparate collection of LED par cans that a member had "picked up from eBay as and when" because they were "a good price".