DMX controller that allows fading between scenes

[gotty]

Another DMX-controller question (unrelated to my previous one).

 

I'm helping a local school install a small stage lighting rig which will mainly be used for very small productions and presentation … the lights are more or less sorted. I've also got them a cheap Universe-192 DMX controller from Gear4Music, which does the job - but there is no way of fading between scenes, so the result is quite harsh!

 

It is possible to fade between scenes if set up in a chase, but chases aren't suitable here.

 

I'd wanted them to use a software-controlled system, but they want a dedicated controller. So I've looked around, and the best option appears to be Transcension Operator 192 which, according to online comments, will crossfade when switching between scenes.

 

Does anyone know whether this is the case? I've tried to glean this from the manual, but it isn't clear.

 

One other feature I'd love to have is the ability to have faders reassignable according to the light selected so that fader 1 always controls overall brightness, 2, 3, 4 control RGB etc, regardless of fitting (makes programming easier). Event Lighting's Kontrol 192 seems to be able to do this, and may be able to crossfade between scenes. But it seems to be only available in Australia.

 

I might add that I've also looked at the QTX DM-X24, which looks as though it can put scenes on faders and can reassign fader channels. But is a bit more than they can afford.

 

Thoughts, as always, much appreciated.

 

Thanks.

 

G

Edited December 4, 2019 by gotty

[sunray]

I take it you require real faders?How many channels of lighting do you require?

[pritch]

I think all of the 192 channel controllers you've mentioned are the same product, with differences in the screen printing on the front panel.

 

The DM-X24 desk that you've mentioned looks like it might be an option for basic two-preset operation, and like the 192 channel desks is available from a number of vendors with different screen printing - as it seems to come in around the £200 mark and that's more than they can afford, it looks like you're in a tricky spot with regards to new desks. You could perhaps look at second hand options, but most theatre type desks seem to come in at £150 for something quite old with a questionable history. Second hand Zero 88 Jesters are out there, and it's quite a nice and simple desk to use for inexperienced operators.

 

There's also a load of Zero 88 Sirius desks out there, but it's nowhere near as user-friendly in memory mode, and many of them don't have DMX cards fitted.

[alistermorton]

I helped do a show at step granddaughter's primary school. They had a stairville DMX master 2 (of which there are numerous copies) and that allowed slow crossfades between scenes. They snapped when in programming mode but once out of programming mode the fade time slider was active. Just about does the job and quite cheap - about 110€ from Thomann.

[gotty]

Thanks all for quick replies.

 

I take it you require real faders?How many channels of lighting do you require?

 

Well, "real faders" as in "one-per-scene" would give some nice flexibility, but not essential. Switching between scenes on buttons is fine, but crossfade is wanted.

And channels … 192 channels (12x16)

I think all of the 192 channel controllers you've mentioned are the same product, with differences in the screen printing on the front panel.

 

The DM-X24 desk that you've mentioned looks like it might be an option for basic two-preset operation, and like the 192 channel desks is available from a number of vendors with different screen printing - as it seems to come in around the £200 mark and that's more than they can afford, it looks like you're in a tricky spot with regards to new desks. You could perhaps look at second hand options, but most theatre type desks seem to come in at £150 for something quite old with a questionable history. Second hand Zero 88 Jesters are out there, and it's quite a nice and simple desk to use for inexperienced operators.

 

There's also a load of Zero 88 Sirius desks out there, but it's nowhere near as user-friendly in memory mode, and many of them don't have DMX cards fitted.

 

 

The 192-channel controllers are not quite the same product - specs do vary, according to their user manuals. In fact I suspect many of the basic models are from the same mould, but with different PCB, case and software configurations. For instance, the Gear4Music Universe-192 has some spaces on the main circuit board for additional chips and interface. That's where the great confusion comes in of course.

 

I confess I haven't seen DM-X24 look-alikes, although I'll have a look around, but I'm thinking about using the Universe-192 for my other project (controlled by an Arduino for multiple preset scenes) and get them the DM-X24 and fund the difference myself.

 

I helped do a show at step granddaughter's primary school. They had a stairville DMX master 2 (of which there are numerous copies) and that allowed slow crossfades between scenes. They snapped when in programming mode but once out of programming mode the fade time slider was active. Just about does the job and quite cheap - about 110€ from Thomann.

 

I'll have a closer look at this one. Thanks.

 

Thanks all

Edited December 4, 2019 by gotty

[the grumpy one]

I recently purchased a ADJ MyDMX Buddy. £50 from thomanns. The free software works quite well. Just what our touring performing arts course needed. It does fades between states and chases, it even does movers.

The only issue is the fixture library. Half of the included fixtures just don't work and you end up building your own, using the included fixture library editor. Steep learning curve.

All you need is a laptop, which most schools have.

 

Software, myDMX 2.1, runs in demo mode until you plug the MyDMX Buddy into the USB. So you can try before you buy, to see if it is for you. In demo mode everything works. With the standard Buddy plugged in you only seem to loose 3D visuliser.

 

https://www.adj.com/mydmx-buddy

 

Hope this helps

[alistermorton]

Well, "real faders" as in "one-per-scene" would give some nice flexibility, but not essential. Switching between scenes on buttons is fine, but crossfade is wanted.

And channels … 192 channels (12x16)

 

That sounds like you're after scene submasters, something you're unlikely to find in a very low end desk.

 

I suggested to the school I was helping that they seriously looked at the educational Nomad package from etc. They liked the price, they liked that it was real lighting software, but they wanted physical faders to pull up and down to affect the lights (which I can understand) as they intended at some point to let the kids (up 10/11 year olds) operate. I think the kids would have got the hang of point and click and drag better than I would to be honest, and of course it's possible to add a midi surface to nomad using luminosus to get physical controls.

 

 

 

[gotty]

That sounds like you're after scene submasters, something you're unlikely to find in a very low end desk.

 

I think the kids would have got the hang of point and click and drag better than I would to be honest, and of course it's possible to add a midi surface to nomad using luminosus to get physical controls.

 

Thanks

 

The fader-per-scene is only a nice-to-have (the basic DMX controller I've designed using an Arduino does exactly that). But fading between scenes on buttons is essential.

 

If I've read the (appalling!) manuals correctly, the QTX DM-X24 and Showtec SC-2412 both seem to offer a scene-per-fader mode so that you can set up 24 scenes and fade as many of them up as and when you need them. Or you can have two banks of 12 that you can crossfade between (a bit like a vision mixer from my days in television). Both modes would work well here. Downside is the cost, and the addition of features not really needed but which will confuse the inexperienced.

 

As an aside, I worked with a bunch of 10-13 year olds, and they all preferred physical sliders for audio work. I'm not sure whether that would apply to lighting.

 

I recently purchased a ADJ MyDMX Buddy. £50 from thomanns.

 

Thanks - I'll take a look.

 

I have my own USB/DMX adapter (ENTTEC DMX USB PRO MK2) and have tried a number of free software packages, but they really don't want a software option. The main reason they give is that the hall with the stage is used as a community facility and they don't want to be lending laptops to hirers, so I have to respect that (mind you, I don't think they realise that hiring the hall with a complicated lighting controller is a whole can of worms!!)

 

I may consider getting the QTX DMX-24 to try (on a 30-day return basis).

[alistermorton]

You can often download the manual for stuff that Thomann sells from their site without purchasing, so you can get an idea whether the way it works is likely to work for you.

[sunray]

If you are looking at 48 channel desks like the sc2412, I'd suggest looking at the 48 fader versions as they are soooo much easier to use in manual mode. In memory mode there is very little to chose between them.

[gotty]

If you are looking at 48 channel desks like the sc2412, I'd suggest looking at the 48 fader versions as they are soooo much easier to use in manual mode. In memory mode there is very little to chose between them.

 

Thanks - good point. However I hadn't realised that "24 channels" actually really meant "24 DMX channels" and not 24 lighting channels.

 

 

I should have figured that out, but the online manual was vague, and I couldn't imagine a unit of this price being only 24 DMX channels.

 

So it's going back as I'm using way more than 24 DMX channels (across 12 lighting channels).

 

Edited December 6, 2019 by gotty

[gotty]

I helped do a show at step granddaughter's primary school. They had a stairville DMX master 2 (of which there are numerous copies) and that allowed slow crossfades between scenes. They snapped when in programming mode but once out of programming mode the fade time slider was active. Just about does the job and quite cheap - about 110€ from Thomann.

 

Sorry to be a pain … but can you confirm that this crossfade works when manually selecting scenes (ie not in a chase)?

 

In other words, if I have scenes 1-5 set up and press 1, it fades up … then I press 5, and it crossfades to scene 5 … and then I press 2, and it crossfades to scene 2 … and then I suddenly need scene 5 again, so I press 5, and it crossfades to 5.

 

I've looked at the manual and there's specific mention of this in a chase, but not when manually selecting scenes.

 

I've already now bought (and am returning) several different DMX controllers on assurances that they can do this, but they can't. Pressing the scene buttons just switches to that scene.

 

Thanks, Alister

[oldbutnotdead]

One fairly shoddy cheat (depending on which particular desk you've got) that can deliver the effect you want is to programme your show as a chase, then (on the 2 faders) set the dwell time to max, the fade time to whatever you fancy and control to Manual. Tap the Tap button & you get a half decent crossfade from chase step to chase step. Not sure if you can jump about in the chase sequence when it is running, didn't try that when I was programming the thing

The Showtec 16/2 FX LOOKS as if it'll do what you want but £300 may be outside the budget. The 16/2 is half the price but doesn't allow scenes on faders (the 16/2 FX does)

 

There's a few community halls I've done jobs in recently where they've splashed out on a load of LED gear to replace the old (70s) setup of Minims, Minuettes, Pat 23s etc and a 2 preset manual desk- they're all finding the same problem (no easy way to give casual users easy control of the lighting without complex and/or expensive controllers).

 

[alistermorton]

I helped do a show at step granddaughter's primary school. They had a stairville DMX master 2 (of which there are numerous copies) and that allowed slow crossfades between scenes. They snapped when in programming mode but once out of programming mode the fade time slider was active. Just about does the job and quite cheap - about 110€ from Thomann.

 

Sorry to be a pain … but can you confirm that this crossfade works when manually selecting scenes (ie not in a chase)?

 

In other words, if I have scenes 1-5 set up and press 1, it fades up … then I press 5, and it crossfades to scene 5 … and then I press 2, and it crossfades to scene 2 … and then I suddenly need scene 5 again, so I press 5, and it crossfades to 5.

 

I've looked at the manual and there's specific mention of this in a chase, but not when manually selecting scenes.

 

I've already now bought (and am returning) several different DMX controllers on assurances that they can do this, but they can't. Pressing the scene buttons just switches to that scene.

 

Thanks, Alister

 

On the desk I used, yes, it cross faded between scenes, unless it was left in programming mode when it snapped between scenes. The fade time is set by a slider, and if it's fully down the fade is instant, i.e. it snaps.

 

We did Aladdin with scenes set for four locations and a black-out on the buttons, and just faded from one location to the next on the scene buttons (even - wow - used a second page of scenes). The low cost (cheap) LEDs we were using were very steppy at the bottom end, but nevertheless the desk was doing its best to fade between scenes.

Edited December 9, 2019 by alistermorton

[ninjadingle]

Would any of the older Zero88 desks work for you? Either Jesters or Frogs?