Newbie to Video Projection - But need to get something together quickl

[Uriahdemon]

Hi, I do the lighting for a band and we are looking at introducing some video on a screen at the rear of the stage.

 

Initial thoughts and designs are based around simple video being triggered at song start and changed between songs.

 

OK, so I have been informed the video will come from elsewhere, but I will trigger/control it via my lighting desk (Zero88 FLX with wings) via a Media Server running the software. This will go to a short throw projector set up on the lighting truss and to a screen of course.

 

So within that for someone who has never done this there are a multitude of questions. If you dont mind I will come straight out with them:

 

• What is the config of the kit I will need to get together to make this happen. I mean what and how it is linked... media server, cabling, software on media server etc ( I have had a look at Resolume Ave.... will that do...??)
• What projector and screen surface do you recommend. I was thinking of something that is not rectangle but a little more artistic looking that we could fit up between some trussing set up for it
• How on earth are video scenes triggered from a lighting console
• With all this what is the easiest touring set up for producing the video but also for rigging

Thanks in advance for your help.

Rgds Mac

[AndyJones]

Hey,

 

We use Resolume Arena, and it's great for this sort of thing. It will need a beefy laptop to run. I use the HDMI output of my laptop into a screen/projector. If the run is more than 20m or so, then reliability is likely to become an issue with HDMI over this distance, so I would then be looking to use a HDMI to SDI adaptors. Be aware that this will almost certainly start adding some lag into the system. Resolume Arena accepts Artnet from a lighting desk to control it, but you'll need to make a custom fixture profile, so that you can pick and choose what elements you need control over.

 

I'm not familiar with the Zero88 FLX desks, but the website seems to suggest these will output Artnet quite happily. I can't help much with the projector and screen side of things, as I mainly do stuff on LED walls. The softwares free to download and use, it just has an annoying watermark that appears.

 

Regards,

[alistermorton]

You could do it in qlab. Depends how much you want to do.

[sunray]

Hey,

If the run is more than 20m or so, then reliability is likely to become an issue with HDMI over this distance, so I would then be looking to use a HDMI to SDI adaptors. Be aware that this will almost certainly start adding some lag into the system.

Regards,

I'm finding VGA is starting to re-emerge for runs to displays to cut down on the delay and reliability issues.

 

[sandall]

I'm finding VGA is starting to re-emerge for runs to displays to cut down on the delay and reliability issues.

In my world it never went away, for those very reasons.

[Uriahdemon]

Thanks Andy,Good info there.

The plan is for us to use a media server over Artnet. I currently use Artnet with the FLX For a tracking back up on a laptop. So all that should help with the lag issue as there will be some distance between output source and the projector on occasions.

The point you make about a special fixture file for the triggering of the video is really interesting and I need to see if I can get more info on that.

We will have to buy the license for Resolume to get rid of the watermark but it will be the Avenue software as opposed to Arena.

Regards Mac

1573232013[/url]' post='578202']

Hey,

 

We use Resolume Arena, and it's great for this sort of thing. It will need a beefy laptop to run. I use the HDMI output of my laptop into a screen/projector. If the run is more than 20m or so, then reliability is likely to become an issue with HDMI over this distance, so I would then be looking to use a HDMI to SDI adaptors. Be aware that this will almost certainly start adding some lag into the system. Resolume Arena accepts Artnet from a lighting desk to control it, but you'll need to make a custom fixture profile, so that you can pick and choose what elements you need control over.

 

I'm not familiar with the Zero88 FLX desks, but the website seems to suggest these will output Artnet quite happily. I can't help much with the projector and screen side of things, as I mainly do stuff on LED walls. The softwares free to download and use, it just has an annoying watermark that appears.

 

Regards,

 

Thanks I will have a look at that.

Rgds Mac

 

1573244787[/url]' post='578213']

You could do it in qlab. Depends how much you want to do.

[empyfree]

Worth holding out until Black Friday. Resolume usually have a good sale.

[kerry davies]

You can't just use projection as an "add-on", your whole approach to lighting the band has to change from that shown in vidclips on the other topic. I know nothing about the tech aspects but from a visual PoV you first need to lose most of your haze/smoke or nobody will see it. Most front lighting has to go and the rig behind the band altered to allow viewing of the "back wall screen). The image is not itself passive but is a light source which changes the whole feel of your current stage image and you will be reliant on side lighting to prevent washing out the video.

 

Unless you have oodles of time and proper large rehearsal facilities to play with it all I would seriously suggest hiring in a specialist then learning from their knowledge, expertise and ideas. At the scale you currently occupy the stages look too shallow and ambient light too high for projection to work well but the main thing is that trying to do LX, FX and projection simultaneously is a big ask for experienced guys and you say you are a newbie. You are asking a lot of yourself. Our doing live bands in a rave setting was inordinately simpler yet we had a team of 4 doing LX, effects lighting, Solar type projection and film and video.

[mac.calder]

There is a reason that projection is not used that much on stage in the concert world - and when it is, it is usually used for orchestrated "stunts" and not as a backdrop - projection was basically skipped for LED walls... The reason is that 99% of lighting fixtures out there will overpower a projected image pretty quickly.

 

When doing on-stage projection for corporate events, generally we would put a fairly big gap between the back of stage and the screen - because even a simple bit of stage wash will completely wash out most projectors - by giving ourselves space we could light the talent and not spill too much onto the screen. In that sort of scenario, it works (ish). Forgive me for saying this - but I can't imagine your budget would stretch to the high brightness projectors that you generally need to do backdrop projection for a band. 3,000-6,000 lumens probably won't cut it.

 

However this is not me saying don't do video... I do not want to discourage creativity in the slightest... instead I will suggest that you look at LCD displays - you can get them relatively cheap, and you can get truss brackets for mounting them to trusses. You can (relatively cheaply) create a really interesting backdrop of various sized LCD's placed 'randomly' in space - or even just 2 or 3 displays placed portrait - and do some really cool media effects utilising the negative space between the monitors. I am pretty sure even qlab can handle that sort of display mapping. Or look at datapath or similar.

Edited November 10, 2019 by mac.calder

[Uriahdemon]

Thanks Kerry,

 

I absolutely get that and we are just looking at things and getting good feedback such as this which will all be factored in. The clip you refer to was for what we are currently doing and understand there will have to be truss and positioning adjustments made for the video to have a chance. It is not intended to use it constantly only now and then at certain points.

 

Scaling of the production will be key in ensuring we dont take on to much for not much happening of value.

 

Rgds

 

Mac

You can't just use projection as an "add-on", your whole approach to lighting the band has to change from that shown in vidclips on the other topic. I know nothing about the tech aspects but from a visual PoV you first need to lose most of your haze/smoke or nobody will see it. Most front lighting has to go and the rig behind the band altered to allow viewing of the "back wall screen). The image is not itself passive but is a light source which changes the whole feel of your current stage image and you will be reliant on side lighting to prevent washing out the video.

 

Unless you have oodles of time and proper large rehearsal facilities to play with it all I would seriously suggest hiring in a specialist then learning from their knowledge, expertise and ideas. At the scale you currently occupy the stages look too shallow and ambient light too high for projection to work well but the main thing is that trying to do LX, FX and projection simultaneously is a big ask for experienced guys and you say you are a newbie. You are asking a lot of yourself. Our doing live bands in a rave setting was inordinately simpler yet we had a team of 4 doing LX, effects lighting, Solar type projection and film and video.

 

Thanks Mac.Calder, lots of good info there.

 

As per my last reply we are just scoping the possibles and encountering the not possibles. This type of feedback is invaluable to ensure we start off at the right level and not set expectations too high.

 

The venues we currently play rule out the use of LCD displays given the power requirements but we would like eventually to move on to them.

 

Rgds Mac

There is a reason that projection is not used that much on stage in the concert world - and when it is, it is usually used for orchestrated "stunts" and not as a backdrop - projection was basically skipped for LED walls... The reason is that 99% of lighting fixtures out there will overpower a projected image pretty quickly.

 

When doing on-stage projection for corporate events, generally we would put a fairly big gap between the back of stage and the screen - because even a simple bit of stage wash will completely wash out most projectors - by giving ourselves space we could light the talent and not spill too much onto the screen. In that sort of scenario, it works (ish). Forgive me for saying this - but I can't imagine your budget would stretch to the high brightness projectors that you generally need to do backdrop projection for a band. 3,000-6,000 lumens probably won't cut it.

 

However this is not me saying don't do video... I do not want to discourage creativity in the slightest... instead I will suggest that you look at LCD displays - you can get them relatively cheap, and you can get truss brackets for mounting them to trusses. You can (relatively cheaply) create a really interesting backdrop of various sized LCD's placed 'randomly' in space - or even just 2 or 3 displays placed portrait - and do some really cool media effects utilising the negative space between the monitors. I am pretty sure even qlab can handle that sort of display mapping. Or look at datapath or similar.

[sunray]

I'm finding VGA is starting to re-emerge for runs to displays to cut down on the delay and reliability issues.

In my world it never went away, for those very reasons.

Seeing the results of ditital delay, I don't blame you.

 

The silly thing is that as a sound guy I have accumulated a selection of bits for video while doing refits and accidentally purchased a selection of 30 long VGA cables (a long story). As a subby I have assisted in all genres of entertainment and my 'odd selection' of kit has often been put into others systems. In the last year or so I've received a number of calls to borrow, in particular long VGA cables, the 8x8 VGA matrix and VGA DA's, and I'm also finding my details are being passed around, one of those hired kit 'as an experiment' then purchased 12 unused cables.

 

[mac.calder]

Regarding the power situation - I am not talking LED wall - I am talking your 65" TV from the local big box electronics shop (or ideally, a decent quality commercial panel). Power draw on those things is relatively small. 165W or there abouts per display.

 

Regarding VGA/HDMI/SDI

 

If you have video delay comparing a VGA signal to a monitor and a HDMI signal to the same monitor, you are doing something wrong.

 

If you have video delay comparing a VGA signal to a monitor and a HDMI signal to the same monitor via a single switcher/matrix type device, you are either doing something wrong or using really crud equipment.

 

There is more active conversion equipment involved in getting an analogue signal to the monitor/projector these days as it needs to be actively converted to analogue, then actively converted BACK to digital.

 

Where you see noticeable delay is in the display technologies - and they will be the same delays whether it is an analogue or a digital signal - the block diagrams for most displays and projectors I have seen literally just add an A->D converter before the switching component used for toggling HDMI/digital connections.

 

Doing ANYTHING video requires some degree of knowledge of the various video technologies involved - just as audio and lighting require knowledge of their respective elements. VGA may be (generally) simpler - but it IS an inferior technology, it is going to die, and people need to adapt.

[sandall]

VGA may be (generally) simpler - but it IS an inferior technology, it is going to die, and people need to adapt.

Didn't they say that about the vinyl disc & the compact cassette? :). I've even had a recent request for floppy discs :huh:

 

I can't comment on delay issues, as I've never tried a side-by-side comparison. Yes, VGA is an inferior system, but it is simple to set up, doesn't often fall over & for the sort of events I do (as with using a simple analogue sound desk rather than a technically superior digital one) the average punter is unlikely to notice any difference.

 

I do wonder whether the aggressive copyright protection in HDMI might eventually lead to its downfall, as SCMS did to digital audio recording.

[sunray]

VGA may be (generally) simpler - but it IS an inferior technology, it is going to die, and people need to adapt.

Possibly, but seeing the cascade of an HDMI signal being distributed by successive DA's and comparing it with the instant changes in a similarly built VGA system...

[mac.calder]

So in a system built incorrectly? Sure, if you treat HDMI like you treat VGA you are going to have a bad time... In this day and age you can do enormous digital video-over-ip matrixes with near-zero (visually imperceptible) switch times covering kilometers that would give VGA system architects a panic attack. But you have to design with the technology.

 

Lack of education and treating it the same as analogue audio is why people have issues with digital. Analogue was forgiving*... sure you might loose some pixels here and there, your clocking may skew, the colours might be slightly off, but if close enough was good enough any monkey could patch together a functioning system* that worked most of the time.

 

^{*if you don't care about quality of image and colour accuracy.}

Edited November 13, 2019 by mac.calder