Hello and flying people

[Guest lightnix]

Thanks everyone I'm now off the show but no-one can understand my reason. They say that they have done a risk assesment and dont see a problem...

 

...Having listened to that I'm starting to think that maybe I'm over-reacting. Either way the show is still going on, the venue knows about it, and friends of mine are now doing the job instead of me.

 

Your comments please....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, you're not over-reacting, it's not the end of the world and I'm sure that there will be plenty of other shows on which to cut your teeth in a safer and less scary manner. It's not the first and it won't be the last time that risk assessments are used to justify highly questionable practices, such as using products for purposes for which they were not designed.

 

OK, there's a fair chance that nothing will go wrong and that people will say "told you so" afterwards, but that doesn't mean that what they were doing was right. The situation you described rang a number of alarm bells with a number of very experienced people, who have decades of experience between them. The megalomania of directors in general is a well-known quantity in the business and you have done the right thing by standing up to it on this occasion. Well done.

 

Look forward to seeing you in here again soon :D

[mac.calder]

Glad you stood up to them. Try to find out who their replacement for you is. Tell them about the issue you had with it, and also point them to this thread. I would also talk to venue management, the council and HSE. If the stunt still goes ahead, then the above three will be the first against the wall when the revolution comes. If you knew who their insurance was through, you may want to tip them off as well. A comp claim for paralisation or death is certainly more than the insurance agency will be willing to pay.

[mikienorth]

I've watched this thread run with interest, and will agree with the consensus.

The first thing our venue said when a visiting Amateur company asked about using a counterweight to fly someone (the right way up) was:

No. Here are three companies (Foy, Freedom, Hi-Fli) who you can speak to about this. If they do it for you we will let you do it, if not no way.

 

I know of a company who had built a performer flying rig, involving tracking and quite high lifts. They RA'd it, and got insured to use it. They had operated flying companies equipment for years before this, and the techniques were not new to them, just owning and operating their own rig was. First year of use, it failed and dropped someone around six feet, who wasn't upside down. Both legs were broken, or so I was told.

Equipment was taken out of service for a year (HSE and then some) and was last used with counterweights in a cradle to test it before being mothballed.

 

Anything like this is the most serious thing anyone in this industry can do. In future, Pro-1-day, you will be glad you walked away, and people will hear your story and think, well, if nothing else you had the courage to leave well alone.

 

I'd be inerested to know which counterweight equipped house, and in particular who in that house who knew of this idea, and who were prepared to let it happen?

[mackerr]

I don't know what others think but if its going to be so dangerous that someone could be injured/killed, could pro-1-day not contact the authorities about it, and inform of the situation etc etc ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not only could he contact the proper authorities, but he should contact the authorities. Flying people is not a matter to be taken lightly. I have been involved with a show where someone did die from falling on their head, and in that case the rigging was supervised by professional circus people. Not enough safety percautions had been taken. Being aware of this situation and not notifying the authorities is irresponsible.

 

Mac

[JimWebber]

I Think It's safe to say, that with regard to attaching people on a length of rope, and dangling them over a stage, the attitude must be:

 

"If you have to ask how to do it, DON'T do it"

[Jivemaster]

Better Pro 1 Day than Parole 1 Day. Remember this management with caution.

[Chris Higgs]

This has some bearing on a bit of work I'm doing at present - this is an amateur company, I believe?

Can we be told:

Do they have any insurance for the production of any kind?

Do the venue cover the performers whilst performing in this production?

 

On the practical, side, it has all been said. Don't.

[andy_s]

Thanks everyone I'm now off the show but no-one can understand my reason. They say that they have done a risk assesment and dont see a problem. Thier reasoning goes like this:

 

The cast member will be suspended using ankle supports that are designed for doing "sit-ups" from a chin-up bar. The cast member in question has been using them for sometime and never fallen off. Given that these supports have been used over 100 times without fail the risk of them failing is very minimal. The fly-bar will have a load on it when the performer is not on-board so there will be no problem there. Therefore they have decided that the only increase in risk is when the bar is moving (only going 6ft up waiting til the end of the scene then 6ft down). The supports are being used for the purpose they were intended for except that the user will be 6ft higher than normal.

 

Having listened to that I'm starting to think that maybe I'm over-reacting. Either way the show is still going on, the venue knows about it, and friends of mine are now doing the job instead of me.

 

Your comments please....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

unless the load is removed at the same time as the performer is added, you will still have an out-of balance system, only this time it will be significantly bar-heavy, meaning that if the operator loses control at any time during the lifting operation, the performer will hit the deck at some speed and break their neck.

 

clearly this is not an action a competent person would consider.

[zonino]

We can't use a dummy because he has to move.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I know this isn't partic relavant for you now - but could you not use a system of pulleys to make a dummy move?

 

n I agree, you should definately make sure venue management/hse know, because if something does happen.... I wouldn't want it on my conscience

[mac.calder]

Thanks everyone I'm now off the show but no-one can understand my reason. They say that they have done a risk assesment and dont see a problem. Thier reasoning goes like this:

 

The cast member will be suspended using ankle supports that are designed for doing "sit-ups" from a chin-up bar. The cast member in question has been using them for sometime and never fallen off. Given that these supports have been used over 100 times without fail the risk of them failing is very minimal. The fly-bar will have a load on it when the performer is not on-board so there will be no problem there. Therefore they have decided that the only increase in risk is when the bar is moving (only going 6ft up waiting til the end of the scene then 6ft down). The supports are being used for the purpose they were intended for except that the user will be 6ft higher than normal.

 

Having listened to that I'm starting to think that maybe I'm over-reacting. Either way the show is still going on, the venue knows about it, and friends of mine are now doing the job instead of me

 

As an asside, do you realise how much 6' is in terms of injury?

 

Was talking to a few friends about flying people today, one is a health and safety officer/nurse, one is a lawyer, and I mentioned the contents of this thread, so I thought I would post a few things that whilst they have been said earlier which we quantitised during this discussion with them.

 

Let's say that over 1,000 times using it, he fell only once, so a 0.1% chance of fall, which is probably an extreamly optimistic figure. A lot of other risks most people would never take are a lot smaller, 1 in 10,000 and lower. It is what would be considered small risk, high hazard. That is stationary.

 

Now the chance of escaping a fall like that with no injury is minute. a two meter fall in any position will almost always result in some injury, not all serious, but falling onto the head or neck... bad news.

 

Then there is the fact you are pulling him up. Has he practiced under those conditions? As you raise him, downward forces are increased (resistive + gravity I spose). If you have ever been picked up by your feet even a single foot, you would realise it is often not a pleasant feeling, quite nausiating really.

 

Six feet is quite a bit more.

 

Add to that he is being pulled up ONLY by his feet in a strap. The slightest bit of overbalancing and he slips. So now that 0.1% is proably increased at least 10 times if he was experianced, 1%. Moderate risk, high hazard.

 

If he had not been trained, we decided the risk would increase to about 5%. That is high risk, high hazard. Little yellow rotating lights should be flashing in your head now.

 

That is like, if every 20 times an actor walked across the stage he fell through a hole in the floor. It is unacceptable.

 

So you start with something low risk, you almost live with that. Add to that the lifting, you increase it by a huge margin, then add to that the inexperiance of the person - circuses do it, with their trapeze occasionally, but I can guarantee that they started up going it standing up. Then they gradually get used to going upside down whilst moving. And the thing is, the circuses use the correct equiptment. They have a form of fall arrest, and they have training.

 

(nb this is AU specific) - In Australia, the venue would be given a document which was written in triplicate and three months to get propper measures in place to prevent such dangerous actions, and the venue could not host any performances during that time, most likely with a nice little fine. If measures were not in place in that time, the theatre is closed. Our workcover scheme would massively fine the company that allowed it should an injury occur and be claimed on, and management would be flagged. Future job prospects are not overly effected by flaggin in mainstream employment, although in the theatre here, word of mouth would quickly spread the news.

 

nb, these figures are approximations based on observation and discussion with peers.

[robloxley]

Lightnix & mac.calder seem to have it - whilst the director & some people might suggest to you the risk of anything bad happening is low, the hazard/outcome if something bad does happen is pretty nasty.

[Jivemaster]

You're out of it now which is hard but wise. If the show goes without a hitch then good luck to them, However there is still a Risk of a fall, and the Hazard value of a fall to death or permanent crippling injury is extreme and un acceptable.

 

Theatre is "suspended disbelief" don't ever even think that the real thing looks best every time Learn to think around problems and find preferable alternatives. Shadow projection and basic animatronics would reduce the hazard to minimal.

 

Take the accident that Christopher Reeve ( SuperMan ) suffered and value that as loss of world class career and life need for 24/7 nursing, medication and life support equipment and subtract that sum from your life income and see how you feel. And that accident was off set, doing a routine hobby! Try a court defence based on I didn't know what I was doing so I asked people I didn't know, via a chat room, for advice. All the members on this forum have Knowledge skill and interest in theatre but you DON'T know who has how much.

 

Also an ill advised stunt early in your theatre career will not help you, You'll go to an interview and someone will say wasn't it there that...... or wasn't it you that.......

[ChrisD]

On a similar Hazard/Risk thingamy, I was talking to a teacher at school about abseiling the towerblock. Risk of something going wrong - VERY unlikely, if done by an experienced abseilerer. Hazard if something goes wrong - almost certain death/serious injury. Hence, no one has ever abseiled the tower block. The chance is incredibly low, abseiling kit isn't designed to EVER go wrong, there's almost NO chance aspect to it however, falling 4 floors onto unforgiving concrete is gunna be baaaaaaaaaaaad, and it's not going to do the school's H&S records any good.

 

Good choice on quitting the show by the way, I hope I would've done the same.

[slim_mcslim]

This is a topic that interests me, as I am the only one here who is for the flying of the man!!! Not neccisarily by the methods mentioned... but...

 

Now I understand all the reasons for not doing it, and in the professional corporate world in which I work I would always get in a pro company as I can afford to do so. However when I was much younger we use to raise people 4/5m up in the air on a 6m piece of truss, hung on a chain hoist used as a large pivot, without safeties, harnesses or any general regard for H&S... now this was just for fun, and I agree it wouldn't have been fun if someone had fallen...

 

As for falling from height doesn't matter whether it is 6inches or 6ft can still be painful It can also be quite fine, but no one ever takes that into consideration, I have fallen 30m down a rockface and have been caught by the safety rope I was on, I have also fallen 6m off the top of an abseiling tower onto the concrete base, I got up, dusted myself down climbed back up and tied the rope off properly!!! Equally my friend fell off the bottom rung of a ladder and broke his arm in 3 places, there is no way to predict what would happen in the case of a fall so it is better to err on the side of safety and just say its dangerous.

 

I am not convinced that this is a case of a megalomaniac director, it could very well be, but I feel its more the case of a person who has an idea, an actor who is happy to enact his idea and a technical crew who are also happy to create his vision. Now this stunt only works because it is in the amateur world and quite frankly people do dangerous things in the amateur (or real) world. Home DIY could be considered one of the most dangerous things people do, and ill informed people remove retaining walls from their houses as they have seen it on changing rooms! Now no amount of the presenters saying "you must consult a structural engineer" is going to stop this person from creating the look they want in their kitchen/diner... The same is true of the original posters performance, the only way this performance will not go ahead is due to the venue preventing use of the flying equipment or an accident in rehearsal, both of which are likely to happen, but the same logic could be applied to the DSM who pops out to go and get coffee and gets knocked over by a bus on their way back....

 

There used to be a rock cover band who tour round with home made props that spin and raise the guitarist up in the air, for one of the numbers he performs a three minute guitar solo whilst suspended upside down in this contraption, whose responsibility is it to tell them that this is not safe.... I say used to, as I haven't seen them for a while now (5 years) and their name escapes me currently.

 

I belive it is a fact of our modern world, and nanny-statism that people just don't belive what they are told anymore, and as such have to learn the hard way, so just saying its not safe and quoting a BS number at them is not enough. The risks are high with this stunt and I hope it comes off without incident, but I don't think that bitching about it on here is going to change anybodys mind. Kinda reminds me of this thread that dragged on....

 

I know my views are not popular, but hey whats new!!!

 

SLiM

[mac.calder]

This is a topic that interests me, as I am the only one here who is for the flying of the man!!!  Not neccisarily by the methods mentioned... but...

 

Now I understand all the reasons for not doing it, and in the professional corporate world in which I work I would always get in a pro company as I can afford to do so.  However when I was much younger we use to raise people 4/5m up in the air on a 6m piece of truss, hung on a chain hoist used as a large pivot, without safeties, harnesses or any general regard for H&S... now this was just for fun, and I agree it wouldn't have been fun if someone had fallen... 

 

As for falling from height doesn't matter whether it is 6inches or 6ft can still be painful  It can also be quite fine, but no one ever takes that into consideration, I have fallen 30m down a rockface and have been caught by the safety rope I was on, I have also fallen 6m off the top of an abseiling tower onto the concrete base, I got up, dusted myself down climbed back up and tied the rope off properly!!!  Equally my friend fell off the bottom rung of a ladder and broke his arm in 3 places, there is no way to predict what would happen in the case of a fall so it is better to err on the side of safety and just say its dangerous.

 

You are an idiot if you believe that. 6m can KILL. 6 inches, probably not. Actually you are an idiot for even suggesting that someone SHOULD perform this dangerous and unsafe stunt.

 

As for your truss experiment - That was idiotic.

 

And as for err'ing on the side of safety - HELL that is what DON'T DO IT! is. The easiest way to kill a man is to break his neck. 6m, facing straight down, will most likely do that. It is not like they will fall from leaning backwards, but rather fall directly down, onto their head. SNAP.

 

I am not convinced that this is a case of a megalomaniac director, it could very well be, but I feel its more the case of a person who has an idea, an actor who is happy to enact his idea and a technical crew who are also happy to create his vision.  Now this stunt only works because it is in the amateur world and quite frankly people do dangerous things in the amateur (or real) world.  Home DIY could be considered one of the most dangerous things people do, and ill informed people remove retaining walls from their houses as they have seen it on changing rooms!  Now no amount of the presenters saying "you must consult a structural engineer" is going to stop this person from creating the look they want in their kitchen/diner...  The same is true of the original posters performance, the only way this performance will not go ahead is due to the venue preventing use of the flying equipment or an accident in rehearsal, both of which are likely to happen, but the same logic could be applied to the DSM who pops out to go and get coffee and gets knocked over by a bus on their way back....

 

Read my post above about hazards. Theatre, all theatre, is subject to Risk Assessment. Amdram SHOULD be run as a Pro Theatre. Just because you do not get payed, does not mean that you can take risks.

 

Risk of a DSM who knows road safety being hit by a bus as he/she gets coffee VERY LOW. Risk of the person falling out of ankle supports as he is being raised because he is not trained properly - HIGH. Hazard level in both cases HIGH.

 

You're analogy about home DIY is a bunch of CRAP. Amdram and home DIY CANNOT be compared, they are completely different kettles of fish - one is someone altering something out side of the orrigional specs. The other is a bunch of people who enjoy the art of acting or being crew, comming together and performing their hobby in a safe and friendly mannor. Emphasis on the SAFE.

 

There used to be a rock cover band who tour round with home made props that spin and raise the guitarist up in the air, for one of the numbers he performs a three minute guitar solo whilst suspended upside down in this contraption, whose responsibility is it to tell them that this is not safe....  I say used to, as I haven't seen them for a while now (5 years) and their name escapes me currently.

 

Then you guitarist friends are just like you. IDIOTS. They are probably dead because he fell down from his contraption and broke his neck in seven places. It was their own responsibility, as well as every venue they played in to tell them this. Just because they HAVE done it, does not mean they SHOULD do it. Hell people have jumped off of cliffs and survived. That does not mean you will - and I know I would much rather jump off a cliff that be suspended upside down for 3 minutes in a contraption that is built by a rock band, which is unsafe. Hell, there is a chance I may survive the jump off the cliff.

 

I belive it is a fact of our modern world, and nanny-statism that people just don't belive what they are told anymore, and as such have to learn the hard way, so just saying its not safe and quoting a BS number at them is not enough.  The risks are high with this stunt and I hope it comes off without incident, but I don't think that bitching about it on here is going to change anybodys mind.  Kinda reminds me of this thread that dragged on....

 

I know my views are not popular, but hey whats new!!!

 

SLiM

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Learn the HARD way!!!! So you are saying a high risk of severe injury is worth it so that people will LEARN not to do something they have been told time and time again is UNSAFE and ILLEGAL!!!! Laws exist to make sure that people do not HAVE to learn at the cost of others LIVES. The fact is that if the OP did go ahead with this stunt, had asked about the risks, and still let it go ahead, he could end up IN PRISON. No slap on the wrist with "It was an accident and you did not know better", but a "So you knew it was unsafe, and you still let it go ahead?... Right, we will get a cell ready for you then"

 

Appologies if this post offended anyones sensibilities, or insulted anyone, but I spoke only truth.