Mixing pit bands with no amps

[knightdan65]

Hi all,

 

Got a production coming up with very little space in the pit for guitar and bass amps. Anyone here tried D.I’ing them both straight into the desk and modelling with external effects processors? What sort of results do you get compared to micc’d / D.I’d cabs?

[sandall]

Got a production coming up with very little space in the pit for guitar and bass amps. Anyone here tried D.I'ing them both straight into the desk and modelling with external effects processors? What sort of results do you get compared to micc'd / D.I'd cabs?

Better to DI the effects pedals, not the instruments, rather than trying to recreate "their" sound at the desk.

[Stuart91]

Another option is to put the amps somewhere else, then basically run a long jack lead out to them from the instrument, and mic them up accordingly. Has to be somewhere without significant background noise though!

[timsabre]

Getting the musicians to forego their amps is usually quite hard also...

[Jivemaster]

The amp and the speaker are critical bits of the muso's sound chain. You may not win this.

[sandall]

Getting the musicians to forego their amps is usually quite hard also...

My experience has been more the other way round - having to explain to guitarists that if they can't perform without an amp they really should have turned up with one

[paulears]

Even when they have IEMs, their amps are usually pretty much an essential element - otherwise why would they have spent thousands of pounds on them? Using myself as an example - I don't have masses of pedals and things - my bass goes straight into the amp - BUT - the amp has a big red glowing button marked MUTE. I use this a great deal. A quick bash, and a twang to check the tuning, then unmute again - if I forgot to put the cable in between the legs of a chair and need to unplug, move and plug back in, I'll use the mute. I could use the volume controls, but I might have a nice sounding bit of this and bit of that set up - so turning TWO knobs to off and then back again is a no no. There's also the thing about where responsibilities stop, and what protection there is. If the sound op accidentally mutes an actors's mic, they can shout - if they mute the guitar and it goes dead - the musician is totally stuck. If their IEM feed is pre-mute, fine, but nothing annoys band members so much as somebody twiddling or pre-fretting. When I'm in a pit band, I'm terrible for this - I have bad habits and often fret a note, unmute and then twang it. Maybe a comfort thing, or just a bad habit - maybe done deliberately because I know I've played that loud F sharp as F too many times.

 

It's a bit like when you give a keyboard player a headset because the mic stand kept drooping or getting in the way - and he realises he can't stand back from the mic and yell at the others - SKIP THE NEXT ONE.

 

DI by all means but asking me to turn down or turn the cab around a bit would work so much better. If you TOLD me I was playing with a DI to make the sound mans job easier, with no alternative or negotiation, I'd probably say stuff it and dig my heels in - and I think many players would.

[Big Jay]

Not uncommon for Pro Musical theatre. Its called a Silent Pit and the pedals are DI's to the desk, that the best was for the Sound Design to have full control of, well... the sound.

[Stuart91]

I know of one show near me (one of the more serious AmDram productions) where the drummer was put in an unused office at the opposite end of the auditorium from everyone else. I think the decision came about because of lack of space in the pit as well as noise issues. It seemed to work OK, he was sent a monitor mix and might have had a video display in beside him too. There were plenty of jokes about how he could play sitting in his underpants since nobody could see him.

[knightdan65]

Thanks all,

 

I’ve done a bit of pit work myself too so know what to expect from the players’ perspective. However, in this case it comes down to a question of safety and logistics - if sacrificing a couple of amps means a clear route to the fire exit then that can’t be a bad thing. It sounds as though DI’ing via pedals solves this problem while giving greater control over the mix. I’ll have a go I think. Cheers!

[Jivemaster]

IIRC member "Grid Girl" has several anecdotes about orchestras being split up for space reasons, it works BUT it needs lots of attention to fold back and monitor systems, likely including video.

[kerry davies]

My vote would be for Stuart's remote amps and feeds from there to the desk. It used to be more common back in the day of mixed electro-acoustic bands like folk-rock and jazz but really loud heavy bands often did the same to stop onstage noise reaching intolerable levels.

[J Pearce]

Talk to the musicians or at the very least the musical director. Explain your concerns, have a few proposals for solutions.

If you impose something the musicians aren't invested in it will be an uphill struggle from fitup to closing night. If you get them on board and talk like civilised adults, you'll probably have something that most people can happily tolerate.

 

I've done everything from fully acoustic noisy band, to careful amp positioning and acoustic treatment around drums, to smaller amps mic'd up, to remote amps/drums, to guitarists using modelling amps/pedals (or even laptops) and drummers on electric kits, to a completely remote orchestra in a room some distance away (as an aside - we recorded the bows and playout and the orchestra came on stage for the bows). All of these worked because they were a team derived solution, that tech, director, and musical director were all happy with.

 

As your issue is more space than noise, it might be the musos have smaller amps that could sit under their chairs. Musicians might be happier DI-ing if they have a processor pedal, they're not totally reliant on the desk for tone and they retain local muting and volume control. If you do DI them what are you doing for monitoring? Will this take up any less space than the amps would?

[adamburgess]

A lot of guitarists I know are using modeling pedals/amp sims (anything from Line6 to Fractal stuff) and as such can be DI’ed and monitored like anything else in cans/IEMs or small full range PA cabs. I’m a keys player so I’ve been used to it for years.

 

The good players realize in a small club or a pit, this is a good option. But, they gotta trust you.

 

Doing stuff remotely can also work for sure - and allows a great mix in the theatre, but the flute or cello player will still hate guitar amps...

[knightdan65]

Yeah, have had a 12 piece band in a remote room before. It worked, but this time round the budget is unlikely to stretch to include kit for video relays and multi cores etc. I’ve DI’d pedal boards in the past for live gigs and find it a much better option, both from a sound perspective and my own experience as a player. To me it spells out better control over sound, less noise on stage and more space - what’s not to like? Just never tried a silent pit before. Things that have been mentioned in favour of amps such as mute switches being available for fretting notes are valid points, but seem like a luxury to me, given that keys and electric drums rarely have their own amps (as far as I’ve seen). I do take the point though about not forcing this on the players - I’ve done pit work myself and have had plenty of bulshy engineers act like dictators. So I’ll ‘sound out’ (geddit?) the players and go from there.