Zero88 Juggler question

[richa]

Hi all,

I need to replace a small scale very old sytem for an amateur group currently of comprising 2 x Strand Mini-2+ dimmers and a Strand LX12 manual console, all of which is past its best. I have in the region of £1600 to spend on replacing this, and my shopping list has on it 2 x Zero88 Betapack 3 15A and a Zero88 Juggler which fits the budget nicely. This console provides exactly what we need, which is a 2 preset manual console as we currently have, or very basic sequence recording and playback. There is no point us getting anything more compilated as there will be nobody willing to learn it.

 

The guy who operates lighting during our shows these days asked me if a sequence can be manually overridden, for example if one the cast wanders out of their light (when I say if, I of course mean when!!), by bringing up one of the channel faders at the same time it is in playback.

Does anyone with experience of the Juggler know the answer to this, I have read through the operating manual but this scenario is not covered?

Thanks,Richard.

 

 

[Brian]

Hi Richard,

 

Zero88's support guys (UK based) are always happy to help with questions like this. Give them a ring.

[J Pearce]

As far as I remember the Juggler has no programmable features, and is just a 2 preset desk. The Jester is the version with programming, both submasters and cuestacks.

[alistermorton]

The z88 site says the juggler can play back saved steps.

[timsabre]

I think you can program scenes on the bottom faders and it has a single chase / stack. It's a successor to the Alcora.

[indyld]

I've not really used the sequence control on a Juggler, but in general with this kind of desk the preset channels on at least the top row continue to function on an HTP basis when other things are playing back in run mode. In program mode, all bets are off with these things and what happens behind the various button presses, holds and cryptic numbers on the LED readout is anyone's guess. My experience is that is barely a step up from a two preset and not an Alcora or Elara replacement.

 

While the Juggler is great as a basic two preset desk, if I wanted to do cue stacking for a drama society etc. I'd try to get hold of a Jester (think they are legacy products now) and a monitor. My hunch is that the sequence control on the Juggler might be frustrating to really use to any extent. It's not totally clear from the user manual if sequences can be anything other than a chase with speed intended for effects, rather than a series of replayable cues with time for theatre playback. A Jester does this and pretty much anything you'd need.

 

 

Or I'd just get a Juggler and accept that it's a two preset manual desk with wide mode and A/B preset storing.

 

I'm not trying to knock the Juggler but I feel that it appears to have an additional feature to your previous desk doesn't BUT in reality the shortcoming of the interface will drive people nuts when they thought they were getting an upgrade. In contrast, the Jester can be set up for every level of user from 'trained to push up that fader' through to 'main lighting person' and achieve some really great things for any show you are doing.

[kgallen]

I'd agree with Rob's observations above and would look on eBay for a couple of DMX Betapack2s for around £200 each (there have been quite a few about recently) and put the £1200 into a better desk like an FLX S24 which you could get for a grand (inc VAT) at CTS: https://shop.central...sole-5473-p.asp

 

I know you said you wanted a very basic desk but as your lighting guy is already talking about sequences and HTP overlaying it looks to me that Juggler is barely adequate for what you need even now. You won't get any LEDs onto it - you might say you don't have any yet but you will within the next few years... An FLX S24 would set you up for life. It'll drive your 12 channels of dimming quite happily, but next year when you buy yourself a couple of cheap LED fixtures, you're away in the clouds...

 

Betapack3 may be lovely but new ones (£650 ea with VAT) are eating the bulk of your budget - I think you could reallocate that more productively.

 

Don't forget you'll need to add on some 6mm or 10mm TRS cable and a 32A/63A IEC plug for each dimmer to whatever supply outlets you have.

 

Regards,

Kevin

 

(No relationship other than customer of either CTS or Zero88, or eBay!)

 

FLX S24 = £1050 Web Page: https://zero88.com/p...lxs/index.shtml Data sheet: https://zero88.com/d...K_Rev2_0418.pdf

2x DMX Betapack2 (eBay) = £450

TRS/plugs/DMX cable = £100

=£1600

 

(I have an Alcora still in stock from years ago, which is a basic but "proper" stack desk. Juggler is nothing more than a 2-preset desk with a few very basic extensions. Jester was the Alcora/Elara replacement range, Juggler replaced the Level series.)

[indyld]

... look on eBay for a couple of DMX Betapack2s for around £200 each (there have been quite a few about recently) and put the £1200 into a better desk like an FLX S24

 

Ha, I stopped short of suggesting saving budget on the dimmers but that is totally what I'd do, even finding some DMX converted Mk1s or converting them myself. I do know that it's harder for a drama society to feel like they are taking on the risk of secondhand dimmers but old Betapacks are a great dimmer that just keep going and are a solid choice from the used market. (Plenty of threads and experience here on the Blue Room regarding repairs and common failure points).

 

I also stopped short of suggesting something like the FLX, which I also think is a great desk for future proofing in a drama society setting and leaves room for all those LEDs that you don't yet own but no doubt will. Right now, the desk might seem a huge leap in functionality but if you are spending money now, it certainly makes sense to get full value from it in the coming years. My suggestion of a used Jester was fine for the dimmers you have (and 12 more) or can cope with a few LEDs if pushed. However, if you end up reviewing your shopping list and reducing your dimmer spend then an FLX surely is worth thinking about.

[Junior8]

Sorry to disagree but unless you have somone who can work on second hand gear - sold as seen - on the bench as and when you need it either buy new or hire. As for the control for most amateurs doing standard repertoire with basic lanterns a two preset manual will be quite sufficient. If the Mini 2 has been doing the job this long and the need for anything else is unclear stick to the basics. In these cases at the present time with LED tecbnology likely to make dimming redundant my advice is invariably to hire if there is a convenient local firm.

[kgallen]

...in which case if the Mini-2s and LX12 are still vaguely working I'd just send them to Ian Knight (http://www.serviceguy.co.uk/repairs) for a refurb and put £1200 back in the bank. I don't see much point in a small amdram society investing easily 10 years worth of capex into a system that merely replicates what they have now albeit with current but premium equivalents. That would seem like a missed opportunity and a pointless use of precious money.

 

If you buy listed as working (and not obviously abused) Betapacks and the like from eBay they won't need any work. If they did, relevant expertise won't be far away and any repair costs would be minimal. If nothing else, Zero88 in Cwmbran or Ian Knight would put them right in a jiffy even if they are 25 years old. 25+ year old Betapack1s are what I use for each and every show. The only required repairs in the last 10 years have been one replacement 15A socket and the tightening of the phase bar nuts...

 

 

Just my 2p worth...

 

Kevin

[Jevans]

FWIW, you can be in just the same boat needing to work on the gear, or needing someone else to work on it, doesn't matter if you're buying secondhand or new.

 

Someone took out one of the triacs on a 4 month old Betapack 3 of ours last year by attempting to dim a domestic practical that had a flouro in it....

[Edward- Z88]

Hi Richard,

 

Just to clear up your initial queries regarding the Juggler, essentially you can have 12 seperate very simple cue stacks/chases, each with a maximum of 99 cues/steps. The Sequence key in conjunction with Shift will allow you to program, edit, delete and playback your lighting states. Your "Sequence" will mix HTP with your channel faders.

Only one of the 12 sequences can be ran at once using the Sequence controls - you can choose your current sequence by holding the Shift key and tapping one of the 12 channel buttons.

 

If this sounds like it may not be much of an improvement on your current system, and that it may limit you fairly soon, then I'd agree with others here... spend more on the console, and buy second hand dimmers if needed. Juggler really won't be comfortable to use with a mixture of dimming and LED equipment if you decide to go down that route later - for this FLX S24 would be the next step up. Despite the many additional features FLX S brings, many users have agreed that due to the interface, it is much easier to use than Juggler or Jester.

 

If you'd like more information on Zero 88 Betapacks, Juggler, or FLX S that's been recommended, please feel free to drop me an email or head over to the Zero 88 Forum.

 

Edward

[richa]

Thank you everyone for replies and views on my situation, and sorry for my delayed response.

Your collective views have certainly given me something to think about, and to look at possible alternatives to my original idea. It has been good to learn that the original question I posed about 'overriding' a sequence with the channel faders if needed has the name HTP, I had not known that before.

Thanks,Richard.

 

[timsabre]

"HTP" means highest takes precedence, in other words if you are running a sequence which has channel 1 at 50%, and you push up the channel 1 fader, nothing will happen below 50% as the sequence output is higher and so takes precedence. Above 50% the channel fader is higher so that will control the output. This is the way dimmer controls work on all consoles.

Once you get into controlling colours and positions for DMX lights, it gets a bit more complicated, but most consoles use "LTP" (latest takes precedence) where the outputs don't mix, the latest change overrides all previous changes.

 

[kgallen]

There is a terminology (and historical) backgrounder in this ETC paper which I've found useful:

 

https://www.etcconnect.com/uploadedFiles/Main_Site/Documents/Public/White_Papers/White_Paper_Control_Philosophy_revA.pdf