Rates

[Charlotte_R]

Hi,

 

So I'm starting to pick up some work (hooray) and I've been asked to quote a price for a week of doing sound for an am-dram group. But I don't know what to charge.

 

I was thinking of working out my rate as £10 per hour plus costs. Does this seem reasonable? How do you all work out your rates?

 

Thanks,

 

Charlotte

[cedd]

Tricky one. I do sound for am dram but I don't price per hour.

 

Are you providing the equipment or just yourself? I'm guessing just yourself from your post.

I prefer to quote a price for the whole job. I don't quantify it unless asked for - if you want me, this is how much you pay. My model is slightly different as I come as a package deal - radio mics, desk, speakers, me, everything.

When pricing a show I consider a number of things. Oddly length of the run isn't high up the list. Number of rehearsals I attend will still be the same, as is the amount of time plotting, marking up my script, producing sound effects etc. Then there's the get-in, which will be the same back breaking work depending on if it's a one nighter or a 2 week run. With sound there's a minimum amount of kit you need for every show regardless of the time it'll be sat in the theatre. Those additional handfuls of hours per performance don't actually add up to very much in comparison to the other baseline stuff that's needed for every show.

Then there's equipment (maybe not of interest to you). If I quantify things like number of radio mics then you're always going to be asked if you can do it with less. This pretty much always makes life more difficult yet earns you less money.

Clients are also wary of expense per hour. A recent new client was asking why I wanted to be on site right from the start of the lighting and set get-in even though sound wasn't required for a few days yet. The simple answer is it made me happier and more relaxed knowing everything was in and working. I went to a local cafe for a hot meal at lunch rather than grabbing a quick sandwich, I spent time labelling things I wouldn't have got round to had it been a one day get-in, I was able to show the young lad who was helping me far more and explain what we were doing as we went, and I just felt far happier doing it. Had I billed per hour the client wouldn't have tolerated that and would certainly have wanted to see a far higher amount of work happening per hour.

If I was a larger firm with employees it might make sense to quantify hours, but as I explain to all my clients "this is what it will cost for me to do your show to the best of my ability". The figure is decided on based on how much money I see it being worth my while loading the van, rigging, doing the show and packing up for. It varies based on the client (who was unpleasant to work with? Who was easy to work with? Whose show challenged me in a good way? Which show was the most fun? Who offered help unloading? Who provided the best snacks at tea break? - You get the idea!) and the venue.

If you'd been working for a professional theatre company I'd maybe be advising differently, but for am dram they like to know what it's going to cost up front and also year on year so they can plan and budget ahead.

Anyway, that's my preference. I've no idea if I work out better off or worse financially by doing it this way, but it seems to keep me and my clients happy which is the best I can ask for!

[timsabre]

I agree with Chris, when working with am dram companies it is best to just give a fixed price, and the price often is worked out as a combination of what they are prepared to pay and what I'm happy with rather than an hourly rate.

 

A professional company would be different but they'd probably be telling you what pay they are offering for the job.

 

[kerry davies]

Cedd has covered it well. The one rule I held was that I never paid for the privilege of doing what I considered work. All my expenses had to be paid in full and then a nominal fee dependent on the things Cedd describes was added.

 

You could spend your entire working life doing "really good gigs" for "really worthy causes" but if this is your work then those gigs must be rarities and even then they must be told what the true costs would be so that they can count your "donation in kind". Don't get a reputation for being available for anything at no cost. They don't ask brickies to build an extension for them for free because "you'll enjoy it."

They do it to us all the time.

[paulears]

You haven't mentioned if you already have a job, or are going it alone as selfp-employed. It hasn't happened yet to our types of roles, but I can no longer work for the BBC in cameras as self-employed. I've been self-employed and VAT registered for a long time now, but the rules to run cameras for the BBC require the person to be an employee of a Ltd company, or be in possession of what HMRC term a 'Lorrimer Letter' - there is a tough questionnaire and it's linked to your BBC job role title, and requires you to have carried out the role numerous times in the past. Impossible for somebody like me, who only gets a call four or five times a year. To work for the BBC, I get PAYE status.

 

In our world - things are less rigid, but I'd strongly recommend you never quote an hourly rate, because it suggests you are an employee - especially if you don't supply any kit. Why don;pt you use the hourly rate to produce a realistic rate for the week, then add on all the things you will supply - you do supply things - I'm guessing you'll use a computer with some sound software to edit and tweak, produce plans and lists and charts and ........ So you would be providing sound services. Probably things they haven't even thought of. If you package the thing up this way, it looks an awful lot like professional services and not an hourly paid person. I've even broken these things down into pre-production - the attending meetings, rehearsals and producing plans and organising, then the get in and fit up phase, then a price for the 12 performances or whatever. My current system revolves around a part-day, full day and extended day - but while I have a price in my head for these, I plus/minus them depending on the job. Am-dram groups seem to quite prefer the price for the job approach, I've found.

 

I'd also encourage supplying gear if you can - even if it isn't yours. Maybe you can negotiate a deal with a local hire firm for radio mics, or PA or anything, then you add 10% and invoice it on, included in your services - packages are always attractive to the group, and to HMRC, who see package pricing (because you have the risk) as more evidence of proper self-employment. My invoices include equipment and people. Works pretty well.

[sandall]

When I was doing am-dram I always charged a fee for me (based on likely hours x a notional hourly rate) plus everything else, including batteries, charged from a rate-card. These days it's mostly one-day or one-evening events for corporate or community groups, for whom I charge an hourly rate (rather more than £10/h though), again plus a rate-card for everything I bring in. Some clients are happy with just a total, but some suddenly want everything itemised, so I find it much easier to only do the sums once.The ones who under-book & then overrun get charged a bit more next time.

 

As Paul suggests, hiring-in what you don't have makes good sense, but make sure you cover all your costs, including time spent on collection & return.

 

 

[Charlotte_R]

To clarify, I will be working with a guy who's providing a package on the basis that he's going to be the lampie and I will do all sound. He's asked me to provide a cost.

 

It isn't my intention to provide an itemised list for labour and hire, etc. I just need a little bit of help to decide on the price rather than plucking a figure out of the air! My intention was to take an hourly rate and multiply it by the number of hours I expected; then add a bit extra on to cover expenses (travel, etc) and then charge a flat fee.

 

What kind of hourly rate would you suggest?

[sandall]

Difficult one to answer, as I suspect we all have different ways of working out our rates, & of justifying them. If this gig is effectively to be a paid hobby then £10 is probably fine, but it might be worth finding out what your lampie intends to charge for his time.

 

If you are setting yourself up in the market you need to look at what comparable jobs are paying, & decide whether you want to be at the budget end or the premium end of that market. Don't under-sell yourself. Many years ago when I needed to hire a PA for a particular gig I found that I could get the rig, plus 2 men & a van, all for about the same as my hourly rate.No, I didn't use them.

[paulears]

I've got a kind of full price and a cut-price rate, depending on if I fancy the job. For an operate only job, that is reasonably local, so I can go home each night - then £120 a day would be fine - if it's a week, or maybe ten days. If they want to plonk on real responsibility - then £180-240 a day. If I really wanted to the show, then I'd perhaps drop to £80 a day. The reality of this is to do with how much is a week of your life worth, isn't it? If you have another job - then you could this one even cheaper, but the question is? Do you want to be known as good at the job, or cheap. If you do the job cheap this time, you will never work for them for the proper rate - am dram companies have good memories!

[Jivemaster]

Three principles of charging are;

What it costs plus a bit.

What others charge plus or minus a bit

What you think you are worth (if you don't charge enough to make them wince it wasn't enough!)

 

A bit of all three will probably give a reasonable figure. Once you have to price yourself out then you need to cover ALL expenses and ALL the time including prep days, then have enough to live on. Will you supply anything? Including things you are giving them (gaffer tape etc etc.) or things you get back -effectively hired to them like microphones.

 

Then consider your work status, as an employee or a self employed person. Charging a fee for the job makes self employed easier, charging an hourly rate pushes you heavily towards being an employee. Be sure how you fit either or both into your accounting system.

 

Am Dram will NOT take well to annual price hikes.

[GR1]

Hi Charlotte,

 

When you add up the hours for reading and marking up the script, specifying and agreeing the kit, attending rehearsals and getting to know the cast, making up sound fx, fitting the show up and getting out plus running the shows and rehearsal in the theatre for a week of shows you will be doing about 60 hours work give or take a bit so at a tenner an hour that would be £600 which is probably what I suggest you go in with. If you get an OK you are a bit low and will know for next time and if it's too much you can negotiate or decline the job. A lot of self employed technicians can't negotiate and you can really only learn by doing it. Put every task you will be doing but no hours on your quote which must be numbered. Then when you invoice you invoice for 'Supply of technical services as quoted'.

Good luck.

PS - One of my pate hates is the use of a spurious 'So' because then the sentence becomes 'So what'. You can appear more mature when you write if you delete spurious words.

[sandall]

..... your quote which must be numbered.

 

Why? They know who you are (I'm assuming Charlotte you are not yet so busy you need to be using accounting software). Numbers are essential for jobs where everything goes through a finance department, but for an am-dram society? It's far more important to date everything correctly. I've lost track of the times I've received a series of updated quotes all bearing the date of the first one.

 

PS - One of my pate hates is the use of a spurious 'So'

Funnily enough it doesn't bother me in print nearly as much as spelling ("pate"?) or the inability of some members to proof-read their posts (that's not a dig at your otherwise immaculate prose :)), but it really does wind me up in radio interviews.

[Junior8]

 

 

I was thinking of working out my rate as £10 per hour plus costs. Does this seem reasonable? How do you all work out your rates?

 

Thanks,

 

Charlotte

 

Not really.

 

You have to be really hard -headed about this and your own personal circumstances are the key to where you start. I agree with the others on one thing. You have to start with an hourly rate that you know and have worked out but you charge by the job. (I say this from bitter personal experience after having an early client who wanted an hourly breakdown. Walk away from this type of client. Make clear right from the start that the price is the price. Negotiate but only on your own terms.) You can only do that by a clear agreement at the start with what the customer expect from you and the absolute minimum you will leave the armchair for.

 

If you have other employment that uses up all your tax allowance each £10 is immediately cut down to £8 after tax. Say you have to travel ten miles each day to do the work 70 miles @40p per mile comes to £28 add parking at £5 a day you can call it £60 a week (none of this tax deductible as the performance space will be counted as your place of work) so cut that hourly rate by another couple of quid and you are left with £6. Would you leave home for that? That's just the price for you. If you are providing equipment you need to decide a price for that, consumables should be charged at costs plus your profit to allow for your own admin time and you will need PLI as well. Make sure your car insurance covers use in connection with your own business if you are carting kit about.

 

Now I know that as from this year if the income is less than £1000 it can be disregarded for tax purposes and this £1000 can be set against income over that amount (which for some will make showing exes on the tax return irrelevant) but it is best I think to start off by keeping proper books showing the exes both those which are tax deductible and those that you have to find yourself. You might be surprised by just how the stamps and phone calls mount up and all these have to be paid by a/the customers through your notional rate.

 

It may be that after going through all this you end up with a price which someone else can undercut. OK you may be able to trim a bit but I think you should always bear in mind the two timeless business saws 1) never chase a sale on price 2) turnover is vanity profit is sanity. Some of the major corporate disasters of recent times have resulted from 'buying' work. It usually ends in tears.