Petition to 'Save Tungsten'.

[vinntec]

Over the lifetime of the fixture, and including the full manufacture process and disposal /recycling, which would take more energy, tungsten or led? And which would be more polluting?

A good question, and another reason why the EU proposal, which dictates a minimum of 85 lumens per Watt, makes no sense. Lamps are easy to dispose of although I doubt much of it decomposes over time, but there is a lot less of it in the first place. I suppose it is theoretically possible that the glass could be crushed and recycled as could some of the metals although would be a very tedious process.

[timsabre]

Its a total energy cost looking at, not bill of materials ;-)

 

Yes, that's what I meant.

[Ynot]

This has resurfaced again...

 

Posted by one of the contributors on the FB Lighting & Stage Pros group page...

A short synopsis:EU set regulations all theatres had to convert to LED by 2025.Theatre cost to convert 100K or more.Small Black Box Theatres would go out of business, because they can't afford the conversion.Petition happened.EU changes ruling to exempt 19 types of Lamp bases from the ruling. This will allow entertainment lamps to be used.But the EU exempted 19 bases that no longer are used in entertainment lighting such as, Screw Base, MR16, MR11 and the like. Because the EU people who are drafting these regulations have no clue of what they are doing!The EU then exempted the HMI single end base and the HMI double end base as an extra addendum. Now the PINHEADS have to include the GX9.5 MSR, G9.5, MSD Platinum base, Lok-it Base, P28, P50 and Xenon bases and others.Hospitals, Schools, Transport (but not Aeronautics) should go LED, but not the Entertainment Industry. I hope this explains some of what is happening in our industry.

One would have hoped that we'd have been further down the line than this by now...

[andrewg112]

One would have hoped that we'd have been further down the line than this by now...

Brexit.

Edited September 6, 2019 by andrewg112

[Ynot]

One would have hoped that we'd have been further down the line than this by now...

Brexit.

I knew someone would utter the fatal word...

But as we don't do politics in here I'll resist :)

(Though I seriously doubt that Brexit itself has anything to to do with their decisions as it affects the whole of the EU regardless of whether we're in or out)

 

 

 

[alistermorton]

Nor will it affect our ability to source the things if nobody is making them.

[adam2]

Nor will it affect our ability to source the things if nobody is making them.

 

 

Yes, that is IMHO an often overlooked factor. Years ago when this debate started with the prohibition on manufacture or import of GLS lamps, someone said "theatres will be exempt" and I said "possibly but that wont help if manufacture ceases"

 

Tungsten lamps are going the way of carbon arcs, gas lights, and oil lamps, all of which are still used today for specialist applications but in tiny numbers. I can remember when the local hardware shop sold gas mantles, oil lamp wicks, and replacement glasses for gas and oil lamps.

 

Many of the more popular spares for gas and oil lamps can still be obtained, but only on-line or via mail order from a handful of specialist suppliers and not from a local shop.

 

The end of the incandescent era is within sight. Just as gas lights "went out with the war" at least as regards new installations, and with most existing gas lights gone by 1980. Note that gas lights are NOT completely extinct, thousands remain in use, but not much compared to the hundreds of millions of electric lights.

 

In 50 years time I suspect that tungsten lighting will still be used, but will be as rare as are gas lamps today. I suspect that the more popular replacement lamps will still be available, at high prices and of doubtful quality but still available. Less popular types of electric lamp will probably become completely unavailable.

 

 

 

 

[Simon Lewis]

I've not followed this story too closely, but the "FB Lighting & Stage Pros" quote doesn't quite seem to tally with the information given (say) in the PLASA update?

 

Having said that, I see elsewhere suggestions that major producers of units like the PAR64 have ceased production and won't be making them again (e.g. here). So - as suggested - we may well see only units of poorer quality on the market until demand simply drops off?

[adam2]

Yes, major manufacturers are steadily cutting back on the range of incandescent lamps. Often due to falling demand rather than a ban. I can remember when GLS lamps came in DOZENS of different voltages, most of which were available in clear or pearl, and in a wide selection of wattages.

 

These days only 110 volt and 240 volt are readily available, and many of the really odd voltages have gone forever. 140 volt, 70 watt and 160 volt 80 watt GLS lamps are no longer available except if someone finds a handful of old stock and flogs them. For a bonus point, does anyone know what they were used for ?

 

Series street lighting bulbs are no longer manufactured.

 

Theatre lamps that are already obscure or in limited demand will likely disappear quite soon, the more popular types might be available for decades yet, but will become expensive speciality items only available from one or two niche suppliers.

 

Carbon filament lamps used to be cheaper than tungsten lamps but are now hugely expensive and therefore hardly used. (excluding so called carbon filament lamps sold on fleabay, that are not actual carbon lamps) I expect that production of GENUINE carbon filament lamps may have already ceased and that those on sale are old stock.

 

 

 

 

 

[david.elsbury]

Time to move to the USA:

https://www.npr.org/2019/09/04/757623821/trump-administration-reverses-standards-for-energy-efficient-light-bulbs

[vinntec]

We all know that Philips stopped manufacturing tungsten theatre lamps back in 2017. I checked what WhiteLight were currently selling for GKV and T26/27 we use and their's are GE Lighting BluePinch etc. However, when I look on the GE Lighting website there is no mention of them? Do I have to be afraid, very very afraid that the end of these lamps is basically until the stock piles run out? Edited September 8, 2019 by vinntec

[adam2]

We all know that Philips stopped manufacturing tungsten theatre lamps back in 2017. I checked what WhiteLight were currently selling for GKV and T26/27 we use and their's are GE Lighting BluePinch etc. However, when I look on the GE Lighting website there is no mention of them? Do I have to be afraid, very very afraid that the end of these lamps is basically until the stock piles run out?

 

I suspect that the large, reputable, and well known lamp companies have either stopped production of most theatre lamps, or have stopped listing them in catalogues with a view to ceasing production in the near future.

 

That however does not mean the sudden, total end of availability. In China and probably elsewhere there are factories that can make most types of lamp to order. These may be more expensive or of lower quality than the well known brands.

 

The large PAR lamps may be gone forever. A Chinese substitute consisting of a separate lamp, lamp holder and reflector is a distinct possibility, but a true PAR lamp is very challenging to make in large sizes.

 

 

 

 

 

[Simon Lewis]

A Chinese substitute consisting of a separate lamp, lamp holder and reflector is a distinct possibility, but a true PAR lamp is very challenging to make in large sizes.

 

Isn't that a Raylight? (e.g. https://www.thomann.de/gb/varytec_raylight_reflector_par64_m40.htm ).

 

From memory, not as bright and the lamp didn't last that long, but it seemed easier to replace...

[vinntec]

The large PAR lamps may be gone forever. A Chinese substitute consisting of a separate lamp, lamp holder and reflector is a distinct possibility, but a true PAR lamp is very challenging to make in large sizes.

Although Philips did say they were going to continue PAR56 and PAR64 production and they both show in their current product line.

 

[musht]

 

From memory, not as bright and the lamp didn't last that long, but it seemed easier to replace...

 

650w(?) lamps very vibration sensitive, lampholders burn out, reflectors tarnish , sealed beam lamps popular for reason....